Nov 12, 2008 23:50
15 yrs ago
10 viewers *
English term

I wish I was rich OR I wish I were rich???

English Other General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters GRAMMAR
The grammar books say I WISH I WERE RICH, I WISH SHE WERE MY FRIEND, I WISH YOU WERE HERE. But I hear people saying I WISH I WAS all the time... I am so confused! Can you help me???
Change log

Nov 12, 2008 23:53: Robert Forstag changed "Language pair" from "Portuguese to English" to "English"

Nov 13, 2008 06:01: Alison Schwitzgebel changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"

Nov 13, 2008 12:35: Robert Forstag changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (1): Will Matter

Non-PRO (2): Liliana Galiano, Egil Presttun

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Discussion

Mihaela Ghiuzeli Nov 13, 2008:
"murky waters' even when grammar books validated me and that usage rules. I'm still glad that at least this forum knows I was talking about.
Mihaela Ghiuzeli Nov 13, 2008:
This question is not such a "fond" reminder of a demo lesson I had on this very topic. It was for a community college job interview . To my surprise, the panelists started arguing about which one is correct. Ever since, I have learned not to get into
Robert Forstag Nov 13, 2008:
(continued) Thus: "Billy said that he wished he was rich", while still clearly substandard, doesn't sound quite as bad to my ear as "I wished I was rich." At the same time, Billy said that he wished he were rich" does sound rather stilted.
Robert Forstag Nov 13, 2008:
I have marked this question "Pro" because it is obvious from many of the comments here that the matter at issue is far from simple. Upon further consideration, Mediamatrix makes a good point about *reported speech*. (continued)
Leny Vargas Nov 13, 2008:
I agree with you Gary. I should have posted my previous message in the References section. ;) (You there means "we").
Gary D Nov 13, 2008:
.... So to be newly politically correct, you would choose your adjectives better and do away with simple adjectives and this will take the focus off the subjunctive. and give you a better overall speech. Obama is one of the better uses of adjectives.
Gary D Nov 13, 2008:
I use both, one is when I make fun of something, the other when I know Someone is listening and could try to correct me and I don't wish to have the argument about was and were. This one is "I wish I were wealthier " As you can be rich in life.
Leny Vargas Nov 13, 2008:
The book "English Grammar in Use" by Raymund Murphy (third Edition), Published by the Press Syndicate of the University of Cambridge, states that, "After if and wish, you can use were instead of was." I wish was / I wish I were --> Unit 39C
Gary D Nov 13, 2008:
I wish I was rich then I would be able to....

I wish I were rich enough to be able to....
I wish wealth would become me so that....
If I were a rich man ... From "The Fiddler On the Roof"

Responses

+32
4 mins
Selected

I wish I were rich.

The subjunctive form of the verb "to be" (i.e., "were") must be used here.

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Note added at 5 mins (2008-11-12 23:55:38 GMT)
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Note:

In informal speech, "was" is frequently used in such instances, but this really constitutes substandard speech.
Peer comment(s):

agree Konstantin Kisin
0 min
Thanks, KK.
agree Marlene Curtis
0 min
Obrigado, Marlene.
agree Sabine Akabayov, PhD
2 mins
Thanks, Sabine.
agree valhalla55
4 mins
Thanks, Val.
agree Fernando Domeniconi
4 mins
Thanks, Fernando.
agree Jack Doughty
5 mins
agree mmasur
12 mins
Thanks, MM.
agree Ruth Martínez
15 mins
Gracias, Ruth.
agree Cagdas Karatas
18 mins
Thanks, Cags.
agree Patricia Rosas
21 mins
agree rhandler
25 mins
Thanks, rhandler.
agree NancyLynn
29 mins
Thanks, Nancy.
agree Egil Presttun
34 mins
Thanks, Egil.
disagree Jennifer Levey : In many contexts - in reported speech, for example, 'I wish I was...' would be perfectly correct. // Thank you, Robert, for having given the matter further thought. Your example, above, is precisely the kind of context I had in mind.
40 mins
I think you make a good point regarding *reported speech*: see my comment above.
agree Erin DeBell
48 mins
Thanks, Erin.
agree Will Matter : I agree with your answer and the comment about substandard usage. We also need to recognize that substandard usage (and the popularity thereof) does not, (in any way, shape or form) change the fact that it's WRONG. Popularity does not equal correctness.
52 mins
I could not agree more. Well said.
agree Cristina Santos
58 mins
Obrigado, Cristina.
disagree R. Alex Jenkins : Forgive me for being a reprobate, but we simply don't say "I wish I WERE famous", or "I wish I WERE a millionaire", no matter how grammatically correct it is. Sorry. // Are you asking me if I'm religious because I disagree?
1 hr
*I* forgive you. But can you be at peace with yourself?
agree Pham Huu Phuoc
1 hr
Thanks, Pham.
agree orientalhorizon : Sometimes "correct" are grammarians, but "common" are ordinary people.
1 hr
Thanks, Ori.
agree Phong Le
1 hr
Thanks, Phong.
agree Katarina Peters : Agree with Will Matter!
1 hr
Thanks, Katarina.
agree Michael Barnett : I agree with Will. Listen to Loudon Wainwright's insight into this issue:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGIstFnrgCk
1 hr
Thanks, Michael.
agree Jamili Jarouche
2 hrs
Thanks, JJ.
agree Lalit Sati : Yes, The subjunctive form of the verb "to be"
3 hrs
Thanks, Lalit.
agree Demi Ebrite
4 hrs
Thanks, Demi.
agree Claire Chapman
4 hrs
Thank you, Claire.
agree chaman4723
4 hrs
Thanks, chaman.
agree Catherine Bolton
6 hrs
agree Patricia Townshend (X)
7 hrs
agree Ulrike Kraemer
7 hrs
Thanks, Ulrike.
agree Lumen (X)
8 hrs
agree Suzan Hamer
9 hrs
Thank you, Suzan.
agree Francesca Siotto
10 hrs
Thank you, Francesca.
disagree airmailrpl : I agree with mediamatrix and Richard Jenkins language evolves by popular usage
10 hrs
It does, but "I wish I was rich" has not gained *enough* acceptance to be considered *correct* English. This is the point. Surely you can think of similar examples in Portuguese of usage that, though widely observed, would still be considered substandard.
neutral Carlos Quandt : The "incorrect, substandard" form wins 8:1 on Google. Is it a sign of accepted usage, or it´s just that too many people are uneducated and say things like "I wish I was rich"?... Relax, the times they are a-changin', but I ain't gonna say you'se wrong :)
14 hrs
I appreciate your generous forbearance in refraining from posting a "disagree". In this case, I really think that the number of Google hits is not a good touchstone.
agree Maria José Tavares (X)
14 hrs
agree Caroline Moreno
23 hrs
Thank you, Caroline.
agree Kristin Privette
4 days
Thanks, Kristin.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+10
15 mins

I wish I was rich, I wish I were rich

http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000031.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjunctive

http://www.eslbase.com/grammar/wish

http://www.englishgrammarsecrets.com/wish/menu.php

Ambos são usados, I wish I were é a forma do subjuntivo. I wish I was é mais informal.

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Note added at 58 mins (2008-11-13 00:48:38 GMT)
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I posted the answer in Portuguese, because it was in English to Portuguese, but basically both forms are cokmmonly used, and some grammar books do recgonize "I wish I was" as correct, as in the last two links I posted.

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Note added at 1 hr (2008-11-13 01:00:16 GMT)
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Well, I've been an English teacher for a long time, and you have to make a difference between expressions that are not used in English and expressions that are used but don't fit formal grammar rules. It makes a huge difference for a non native speaker to know the difference between them.

I don't believe an expression that is widely used is wrong, you just have to know when to use it and when not to use it. You ain't gonna talk like that in a job interview, got it? (was this sentence wrong? I bet you all understood it) But that is a way the language is used, and, therefore it isn't wrong...

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Note added at 16 hrs (2008-11-13 16:05:17 GMT)
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http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080915183928AA...

Now, that gives you an idea of how the average English speaker thinks. Out of 6 votes, 5 said "I wish he was" would be the correct answer. The only one who said "I wish he were" was the correct answer also pointed out that it is the subjunctive form. Most native English speakers have no idea what subjunctive means. So basically they say "I wish he was" because "he" is singular, and that's it. That's how most people speak.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Robert Forstag : Although commonly used, "I wish I was" is incorrect, and therefore falls into the same category as the use of "ain't", "irregardless", and "snuck" (all of which are commonly used, and therefore, in some sense, "accepted", and yet substandard).
17 mins
It is substandard indeed, but not wrong... In some of the grammar links I posted they say I wish I was can be used
agree Jennifer Levey : Exactly. And there's nothing 'substandard' about the way millions of English-speakers, worldwide, use their native or adopted language.
31 mins
I see your point, you can't say most English speakers speak a substandar English...
neutral Will Matter : 'Substandard' and 'incorrect' can, quite rightfully, be considered as synonymous. // They also say 'Where you is?' & 'I axed (asked) him' & 'I don't know nuthin' and ALL of them are incorrect. Usage does not bestow correctness, there are RULES.
46 mins
They are not synonymous. But that's a point o view. The thing is, English speakers do say If I was, period.
neutral R. Alex Jenkins : Is it WERE or WAS ?
1 hr
Both are used
agree airmailrpl : - both
10 hrs
agree Carlos Quandt : the second form could be categorized as "informal" or even "nonstandard". Yet, it's widely used, even by educated people.
11 hrs
It is true, and the reference you posted about descriptive and prescriptive grammar is really interesting.
agree Liam Hamilton : English evolves all teh time - either is now acceptable
13 hrs
agree jccantrell : With Liam here. Grammar specifies subjunctive, but in conversation, virtually everyone here in the USA uses 'was.'
15 hrs
agree Flavia Martins dos Santos
15 hrs
agree felidaevampire : According to my English Grammar In Use (which is pretty old, therefore not "infected" with nowadays usage), both forms are correct, in any sentence(s). :)
17 hrs
I love that book, it is like a grammar Bible for me, but I don't have a copy with me now to post its explanation. But if it says both forms are correct, indeed they are, it is a very respected book...
agree Leny Vargas
19 hrs
agree Polangmar
1 day 22 hrs
agree Egil Presttun : According to descriptive grammar you're right.
2 days 22 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
1 hr

It depends!!

Without a context no one can say for certain which is appropriate. Grammarians and childrens' textbooks often use these (actual) examples:

If I were you, I'd be careful (I can't be you).

If I was king, you would be my queen (unlikely but not impossible).

The obvious problem here is that it depends on many factors what a speaker considers to be likely, unlikely or impossible.

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Note added at 2 days4 hrs (2008-11-15 03:57:13 GMT)
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To be more explicit on the grammar:

Expressions of will require a subjunctive. They do not state a real fact, but impose a condition. Conditions are categorized on a spectrum from real, such as scientific conditions, to unreal or impossible, as in desire or volition.

So, in the original post, using "I wish I were rich" vs. "I wish I was rich" may also depend on the main clause of the sentence (which was not provided by the asker in our discussion), in either case, to determine whether any subjunctive meaning can be inferred from the context.

In the end, although it is sufficient to say 'was' is less formal (but just as correct) as 'were', it's not the whole story.

In other words, it all depends.

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Note added at 2 days4 hrs (2008-11-15 04:19:09 GMT)
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btw:

My first example above has the subjunctive meaning, thus the 'were', the second, the indicative.

In the 1st, we're not in 'The Matrix', I cannot be you; but, were we downtown, I apparently could because that's just how people speak and grammarians (c.f. the Oxford English Grammar) agree.

In my second example above, there's a more indicative meaning, thus the 'was'. Keep in mind, it could be Prince Harry speaking (perhaps to a girl at a pub?). In any case, it's a possible condition.
Peer comment(s):

agree airmailrpl : -
9 hrs
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

11 hrs
Reference:

Prescriptive vs. Descriptive Grammar

1. Descriptive grammar: the systematic study and description of a language. Descriptive grammar refers to the structure of a language as it is actually used by speakers and writers.

2. Prescriptive grammar: a set of rules and examples dealing with the syntax and word structures of a language, usually intended as an aid to the learning of that language. Prescriptive grammar refers to the structure of a language as certain people think it should be used.

Both kinds of grammar are concerned with rules--but in different ways. Specialists in descriptive grammar (called linguists) study the rules or patterns that underlie our use of words, phrases, clauses, and sentences. On the other hand, prescriptive grammarians (such as most editors and teachers) lay out rules about what they believe to be the “correct” or “incorrect” use of language.

Descriptive grammarians ask the question, “What is English (or another language) like--what are its forms and how do they function in various situations?” By contrast, prescriptive grammarians ask “What should English be like--what forms should people use and what functions should they serve?” (...) Modern grammarians aim to describe rather than prescribe linguistic forms and their uses. Dictionary makers also strive for descriptive accuracy in reporting which words are in use and which senses they carry.

"Prescriptive grammar may tell its users that some expressions are incorrect, contrary to actual contemporary usage by the vast majority of users and writers in the vast majority of cases"
(Synchronic English Linguistics, Paul Georg Meyer)

Examples:
"It is I" or "It's me"?
"I wish I were" or "I wish I was"?
"drive slow" or "drive slowly"?
"the man whom I saw"? or "the man who I saw"?
"the man to whom I spoke" or "the man I spoke to"?
"to go boldly" or "to boldly go"? (split infinitive)?
"I wouldn't think" or "I would think not"?
"between you and me" or "between you and I"?
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree Lubain Masum : Good reference. Useful for non-natives like me.
1 day 16 hrs
Something went wrong...
23 hrs
Reference:

Homenagem...

Em homenagem à Denise, aqui vai trecho do meu English Grammar In Use:
[UNIT 37 - "If" and "wish" sentences (present)]
c) In "if" sentences and after "wish" you can use "were" instead of "was":
- If I were you, I wouldn't buy that coat. (or 'If I was')
- I'd go out if it weren't raining. (or 'if it wasn't raining')
- I wish my room were larger. (or 'I wish my room was larger.')
É claro que só se pode usar "was" ao invés de "were" quando o sujeito está no singular; caso esteja no plural, precisa-se usar "were".
Vale comentar que minhas professoras da Cultura Inglesa não eram fãs do uso de "was" com "if" e "wish". Elas torciam o nariz quando ouviam estas combinações. O uso de "were" é mais formal/tradicional, mais agradável aos ouvidos (se não dos Ingleses, pelo menos aos meus, mas isso pode ser influência das minhas "teachers").
Tentando ajudar... :)

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Note added at 1 day23 hrs (2008-11-14 22:57:09 GMT)
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[Sorry, LittleBalu (and everyone else).]
OK. English version...
I have posted above a small extract from my English Grammar In Use (it is in English, so there's no need to write everything again). Here's what follows:
Of course we can only write "was" instead of "were" when the subject is singular; if it's plural (we, they...), we must write "were".
It's worth the comment on my teachers from Cultura Inglesa. They were not fond of using "was" in "if" and "wish" sentences. They'd literally twist their noses when they heard such combinations. Using "were" is more traditional/formal, more pleasant to the ears (if not to English ears, at least to mine, but this may be the influence of my teachers).
Trying to help... :)
Peer comments on this reference comment:

neutral Ulrike Kraemer : This is an English monolingual question. Please post your comments in English so that we all know/understand what you are saying. Thank you.
9 hrs
You are absolutely right. I do apologize. I hadn't noticed and I had Denise in mind while writing my comment (she does speak Portuguese). Sorry! (missed a "t" in "Portuguese"...):)
Something went wrong...
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