Glossary entry (derived from question below)
German term or phrase:
„So mag es bei der Fratze bleiben.“
English translation:
Let us agree and put the farce to this odd use.
Added to glossary by
espintl
Apr 4, 2010 02:24
14 yrs ago
German term
„So mag es bei der Fratze bleiben.“
German to English
Art/Literary
Poetry & Literature
Goethe Faust
This is a statemeny that appears in Faust.
I wonder what it means in the context.
„So mag es bei der Fratze bleiben.“
The statement appear in the followng pagssage on teh German wikipedia
Das Wort „Fratze“ bedeutete noch bis ins 19. Jahrhundert auch ein (teuflisches) Trugwerk. In diesem Sinn hat es Goethe in seinem Faust mehrfach und mit Nachdruck verwendet: Im ersten Teil, als der Professor den Teufelspakt mit Blut unterschreibt und das nicht recht ernst nehmen will, sagt er: „So mag es bei der Fratze bleiben.“ Im zweiten Teil, als sich Mephistopheles als Narr maskiert, heißt es von ihm: „Gar köstlich ist er aufgeputzt, / Doch fratzenhaft, dass Jeder stutzt.“
I wonder what it means in the context.
„So mag es bei der Fratze bleiben.“
The statement appear in the followng pagssage on teh German wikipedia
Das Wort „Fratze“ bedeutete noch bis ins 19. Jahrhundert auch ein (teuflisches) Trugwerk. In diesem Sinn hat es Goethe in seinem Faust mehrfach und mit Nachdruck verwendet: Im ersten Teil, als der Professor den Teufelspakt mit Blut unterschreibt und das nicht recht ernst nehmen will, sagt er: „So mag es bei der Fratze bleiben.“ Im zweiten Teil, als sich Mephistopheles als Narr maskiert, heißt es von ihm: „Gar köstlich ist er aufgeputzt, / Doch fratzenhaft, dass Jeder stutzt.“
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
+4
33 mins
Selected
Let us agree and put the farce to this odd use.
as in joke, charade, or
untruth
grotesque, unreal/untrue face (Fratze)
in your second instance:
fratzenhaft (scary)
http://www.archive.org/stream/goethesfaust00goetuoft/goethes...
„So mag es bei der Fratze bleiben.“
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/faust05.html
Let us agree and put the farce to this odd use.
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/faust22.html
But such a fright that all men start.
http://www.archive.org/stream/goethesfaust00goetuoft/goethes...
German version
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Note added at 44 mins (2010-04-04 03:08:46 GMT)
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here realized as absurd / absurdity:
translated by:
ANNA SWANWICK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Swanwick
http://www.bartleby.com/19/1/3.html
MEPHISTOPHELES
Wherefore thy passion so excite
And thus thine eloquence inflame? 1410
A scrap is for our compact good.
Thou under-signest merely with a drop of blood.
FAUST
If this will satisfy thy mind,
Thy whim I’ll gratify, howe’er absurd.
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Note added at 1 day11 hrs (2010-04-05 14:07:22 GMT)
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@Yorrick:
I wasn't going to suggest my own version, but this is what you find on the internet and, as an example, I believe it does convey the meaning correctly. "Nothing true", "nothing serious", "just a gimmick (Mätzchen)" that's Faust's opinion on signing this pact with his blood but it is much more than that, it was a betrayal, a trick but all these expressions can be rolled into one with "Fratze" a mask that conceals the truth, for fun, for laughter, or for deceit.
Mephistopheles hints at that with the famous phrase in the next sentence:
"Blut ist ein ganz besondrer Saft."
untruth
grotesque, unreal/untrue face (Fratze)
in your second instance:
fratzenhaft (scary)
http://www.archive.org/stream/goethesfaust00goetuoft/goethes...
„So mag es bei der Fratze bleiben.“
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/faust05.html
Let us agree and put the farce to this odd use.
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/faust22.html
But such a fright that all men start.
http://www.archive.org/stream/goethesfaust00goetuoft/goethes...
German version
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 44 mins (2010-04-04 03:08:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
here realized as absurd / absurdity:
translated by:
ANNA SWANWICK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Swanwick
http://www.bartleby.com/19/1/3.html
MEPHISTOPHELES
Wherefore thy passion so excite
And thus thine eloquence inflame? 1410
A scrap is for our compact good.
Thou under-signest merely with a drop of blood.
FAUST
If this will satisfy thy mind,
Thy whim I’ll gratify, howe’er absurd.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day11 hrs (2010-04-05 14:07:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
@Yorrick:
I wasn't going to suggest my own version, but this is what you find on the internet and, as an example, I believe it does convey the meaning correctly. "Nothing true", "nothing serious", "just a gimmick (Mätzchen)" that's Faust's opinion on signing this pact with his blood but it is much more than that, it was a betrayal, a trick but all these expressions can be rolled into one with "Fratze" a mask that conceals the truth, for fun, for laughter, or for deceit.
Mephistopheles hints at that with the famous phrase in the next sentence:
"Blut ist ein ganz besondrer Saft."
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Kim Metzger
: Better translation than "If this will satisfy thy mind, Thy whim I'll gratify, howe'er absurd."
7 mins
|
thank you, Kim!
|
|
agree |
Ulrike Kraemer
: mit Kim
6 hrs
|
vielen Dank, U.!
|
|
agree |
Ingeborg Gowans (X)
: mit beiden Vorgängern / Frohe Ostern!
8 hrs
|
danke, Ingeborg! Dir auch Frohe Ostern!
|
|
agree |
Rebecca Garber
10 hrs
|
thank you, Rebecca!
|
|
disagree |
YorickJenkins
: Stylistically this is sorry to say this, very poor. I also don't think that Fratze could possibly mean farce
1 day 10 hrs
|
please see my add-on notes.
|
|
agree |
Annett Kottek (X)
: Explanation above.
1 day 12 hrs
|
danke, Annett! Auch für die hilfreiche Diskussion oben.
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Viele Danke. All answers seem ok, but This is my preference."
-1
31 mins
"This is after all nothing but a grimace."
Up until the nineteenth century, the word "grimace" also meant a (devilish) work of deception. Goethe frequently and emphatically used it in this sense throughout his Faust: In the first part, when the Professor seals his pact with the Devil in blood without taking himself too seriously, he says: "This is after all nothing but a grimace." In the second part, when Mephistopheles disguises himself as a fool, the statement comes from him: "He is all spruced up, / But his grimace looks so grotesque, that everybody is taken aback."
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
Kim Metzger
: Grimace doesn't work at all for this special meaning of Fratze.
6 mins
|
disagree |
Ulrike Kraemer
: with Kim; your translation doesn't convey the meaning of the German phrase at all
6 hrs
|
agree |
Barbara Wiebking
: Why not? I think it is in accordance with the third definition that the Century Dictionary gives here: http://www.wordnik.com/words/grimace/definitions
18 hrs
|
9 hrs
So then let this farce remain
One way to phrase it.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Barbara Wiebking
8 hrs
|
disagree |
YorickJenkins
: I don't see a justfiication for translating Fratze as farce
1 day 1 hr
|
1 day 11 hrs
Let us keep within gesticulation and grimace
Faust is saying here that he sees no need for formal confirmation. The gestures/outward appearances are enough.
I thought the quotation below was revealing-especially as Faust's pact is a caricature of what happens at Easter. Fratze DOES mean grimace in my opinion and I do not agree with the disagreements given to Andres. I think his "grimace" is correct but didn't like "this is nothing but.." because that is not in myopinion what Faust is saying. He is stressing that the appearance of intent requires no formal /ceremonial confirmation.
Here is the description of the Fratze in Medieval legend from which Goethe probably drew inspiration for the line in question:
Wer in früheren Zeiten das erstmals 1267 urkundlich erwähnte Ostertor passierte, begegnete dort einer hölzernen Fratze aus dem 17.Jahrhundert, die als Schreckdämon bei jedem Glockenschlag den Vorübergehenden die Zunge herausstreckte.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 Tage8 Stunden (2010-04-06 11:17:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I took the trouble to read the surrounding text intensively and concede that Faust regards the entire proceedings including the signing of the document as hocus-pocus, (I thought on a first reading it that he was excluding the signing of the document from the meaning of "Fratze" but Faust includes the gestures with the formal confirmation. They are all one to him). I think this is a parody of Lutheran "justifcation by faith" versus Roman Catholic finding the way to Heaven through good deeds, the devilish contrast here being the Faustian "word" versus Mephistopheles' need for deeds. I would make a small but significant change to my suggestion and that is to replace "gesticulation" with gesture, thereby including the signing of the document in the meaning of "Fratze". I can think of no English word which conveys the double meaning of Fratze as grimace and gesture. My understanding of "farce" is that it is something pitiful, humorous, unacceptable-I don't see that in the word "Fratze" (well perhaps a little of the humorous). To sum up-I agree that I had a too narrow interpretation of "Fratze" but I still don't like "farce" at all, I don't think it conveys anything of the menace and Gothic of the original.
I thought the quotation below was revealing-especially as Faust's pact is a caricature of what happens at Easter. Fratze DOES mean grimace in my opinion and I do not agree with the disagreements given to Andres. I think his "grimace" is correct but didn't like "this is nothing but.." because that is not in myopinion what Faust is saying. He is stressing that the appearance of intent requires no formal /ceremonial confirmation.
Here is the description of the Fratze in Medieval legend from which Goethe probably drew inspiration for the line in question:
Wer in früheren Zeiten das erstmals 1267 urkundlich erwähnte Ostertor passierte, begegnete dort einer hölzernen Fratze aus dem 17.Jahrhundert, die als Schreckdämon bei jedem Glockenschlag den Vorübergehenden die Zunge herausstreckte.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 Tage8 Stunden (2010-04-06 11:17:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I took the trouble to read the surrounding text intensively and concede that Faust regards the entire proceedings including the signing of the document as hocus-pocus, (I thought on a first reading it that he was excluding the signing of the document from the meaning of "Fratze" but Faust includes the gestures with the formal confirmation. They are all one to him). I think this is a parody of Lutheran "justifcation by faith" versus Roman Catholic finding the way to Heaven through good deeds, the devilish contrast here being the Faustian "word" versus Mephistopheles' need for deeds. I would make a small but significant change to my suggestion and that is to replace "gesticulation" with gesture, thereby including the signing of the document in the meaning of "Fratze". I can think of no English word which conveys the double meaning of Fratze as grimace and gesture. My understanding of "farce" is that it is something pitiful, humorous, unacceptable-I don't see that in the word "Fratze" (well perhaps a little of the humorous). To sum up-I agree that I had a too narrow interpretation of "Fratze" but I still don't like "farce" at all, I don't think it conveys anything of the menace and Gothic of the original.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Bernhard Sulzer
: the asker referred to this wikpedia page and based on that, I do see it as being a "Posse", a "joke". a "ridiculous farce" (in the first instance): http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fratze
12 mins
|
neutral |
Annett Kottek (X)
: I don't follow your reasoning. Faust agrees (and goes on) to sign the pact as requested.
2 hrs
|
Discussion
In any case, I believe that ‘Fratze’ here denotes ‘nonsense’ or ‘absurdity’, but I’d also go along with Bernhard’s ‘farce’ or 'gimmick'.