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Loi SR
Ministère de l'Action

Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

où il s’incarnait d’une poignée de religieux

English translation:

was dominated by a handful of priests

Added to glossary by Lara Barnett
Apr 4, 2019 14:31
5 yrs ago
French term

où il s’incarnait d’une poignée de religieux

French to English Art/Literary Cinema, Film, TV, Drama Essay on Quebecois cinema
This text has just begun by explaining how Canada has always shown the tensions of its society, and its fears and aspirations. Then:

Des premiers temps, où il s’incarnait via le cinéma ethnologique d’une poignée de religieux, aux succès planétaires de Denys Arcand, Xavier Dolan et Denis Villeneuve, son histoire, demeure étonnamment constante à travers les changements d’époques et les modes.

Something like:

"From its earliest times, when it used ethnological cinema to present a handful of religious films...." ???
Proposed translations (English)
4 +5 was dominated by a handful of priests
4 +1 when it was represented by [the X of] a handful of priests [clergymen, etc.]
3 when it (Canada/Quebec cinema) was figuratively given flesh and blood by a handful of clerics

Discussion

Charles Davis Apr 5, 2019:
And (sorry to add yet another post) although the original point I've been making here — what exactly is a "religieux" — doesn't affect the translation of this particular passage, if you ever have to translate a text that refers to religious versus secular clergy, for example, it is useful to have the distinctions clear in your mind. "Religious clergy" sounds like a tautology, but it isn't; it's a technical term.
Charles Davis Apr 5, 2019:
I didn't say that all Catholics will know it, simply that most of those who do know it will be Catholics, and practising Catholics at that, with a personal involvement in the Church and/or an interest in Church history. That's not a very large group in the English-speaking world. I never said it was a common word in general terms at all; plainly it isn't. It's common in the Catholic press and Catholic literature. It exists, and those who commonly discuss the Church and its institutions use it, that's all.

Actually it's not just Catholics; there are Anglican and Lutheran religious. But personally I've only met it in Catholic contexts. I don't have a close interest in those Churches.

Anyway, if you do ever come across it again you'll know what it means :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_(Western_Christianit...
Eliza Hall Apr 5, 2019:
@Charles "Only Catholics are likely to know the word at all" -- well, I'm mostly Irish on one side and mostly Spanish on the other, with nothing but Catholics among those of my relations who are religious, and have read every famous Irish author (prose or poetry) that there is, and also wrote an undergraduate thesis on the Inquisition. But I'd still never seen that word used as a noun in English. I don't think it's even as widely known as you suggest. But as I said, live and learn.
Charles Davis Apr 5, 2019:
@Eliza Let me make it clear (though I've said it already) that I am not advocating translating "religieux" as religious here. The main reason is that I am convinced that the author doesn't actually mean "religieux" at all; he/she means "prêtres". But even if he/she were using the word correctly, and these early ethnological films were made by monks and nuns rather than priests (which I seriously doubt), I would still not use "religious" in English here because I don't think it would be suitable in this kind of text.

I am not surprised that you haven't come across it in English literature, because hardly any of that literature since the 1530s has been about Roman Catholicism; monks and nuns hardly figure in it. Only Catholics are likely to know the word at all. It is perfectly familiar to English-speaking Catholic intellectuals, and to me because although I am not a Catholic myself I have spent my life working on and writing about the culture of a Catholic country. But I would not use it in a text aimed at readers who are not likely to know it.
Eliza Hall Apr 5, 2019:
Live and learn I have a master's degree in English, have read most of the classics of English literature from Shakespeare on (and a bit of the earlier stuff e.g. Chaucer), and have literally never seen the word "religious" used as a noun in English.

I'm not saying you or the dictionary is wrong, but I am saying it's about as far from widely used as it's possible to be (unlike the noun "religieux" in French). And even if a word exists, I don't think it's good practice to translate a frequently used, everyday word with an incredibly rare word.
Charles Davis Apr 5, 2019:
@Eliza Pardon me, but "religious" is indeed a noun in English:

"religious noun
plural religious
Definition of religious (Entry 2 of 2)
: a member of a religious order under monastic vows"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religious

"religious
n. pl. religious
A member of a monastic order, especially a nun or monk."
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=religious

I could quote many more: basically any English dictionary. It's always an accurate translation of "religieux" (noun). Whether it's suitable depends on the nature of the text; many readers will be unfamiliar with the use of "religious" as a noun, as you are, so you will quite often want to consider an alternative.

If you work in the area of religion, it is very important to be clear that "priest" or "cleric" for "religieux" is a basic mistranslation. As I said in my post, a number of priests are indeed members of a religious order, and someone referred to as a "religieux" could be a priest as well, but they are two quite distinct issues.
Eliza Hall Apr 5, 2019:
@ Charles Davis "religious" not a noun in English ...so when "religieux" (which can also be an adjective) is used as a noun in French, "religious" is the wrong translation. "Religious people" might be a good one, depending on context, but never "religious" by itself.

I agree that as a noun in French, it means someone who has taken religious vows. But that can include priests. So other possible translations, depending on context, include: monk, nun ("religieuse" if referring only to nuns), priest, cleric...

From the Trésor de la Langue Française: "1. Subst. Personne qui a prononcé des vœux de religion (v. ce mot II A), qui s'est engagée à suivre une règle autorisée par l'Église." An example from French literature uses "religieux" in opposition to "laïc," with "laïc" (in that particular context) meaning a normal person who adheres to a religion, and "religieux" meaning a nun, monk or similar: "J'ai entendu parler d'un religieux que l'on avait laissé tout seul à la garde de son couvent... Il me semble après tout que ce n'était pas un religieux, ni même un oblat, mais plutôt un de ces chrétiens naturels et spontanés que l'on pourrait appeler un laïc..." Claudel,Poète regarde Croix,1938, p. 142
Lara Barnett (asker) Apr 5, 2019:
@ Charles Thank you, very relevant and interesting points.
Charles Davis Apr 4, 2019:
religieux... does not mean "priest"; it means "religious" (noun). A priest (prêtre) is someone who has been ordained. A religious (religieux) is someone who has taken vows, nearly always as a member of a religious order or congregation: in other words, a monk, friar or nun. It is possible for a religieux to be an ordained priest, but only one who also belongs to a religious order, which most don't. And most members of religious orders are not priests.

However, many people are not aware of this, and the writer of this text seems to be one of them. I'm pretty sure he or she has misused the word and is actually referring to priests, not monks or nuns, who made ethnological films. This seems to be borne out by the following, from the Canadian Encyclopedia, referring to Quebec:

"Early Ethnographic Filmmaking
Starting in the 1930s, another type of production saw the light of day. These non-professional filmmakers, often priests, made 16mm films that served educational or promotional purposes."
https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/the-cinema...

Proposed translations

+5
10 mins
Selected

was dominated by a handful of priests

I assume that when you say Canada, you mean Québecois cinema.

"From 1896 to the 1960s, **the Catholic clergy tried to control what movies Quebecers could see.** Two methods were employed: censorship and prohibition of attendance by children under 16. In 1913, the Bureau de censure de vues animées (Office of censorship for motion pictures) began regulating the projection of movies in Quebec. In 1927, the Laurier-Palace theatre burned down, killing many children. The church then almost succeeded at closing down all projection rooms in the province. However, the Parliament of Quebec passed a law preventing only children under 16 from attending movie projections. This law would be repealed only in 1961.

Nevertheless, some films were produced in Quebec during this period. Those were mostly documentaries, **some of which were made by priests**.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_of_Quebec

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 14 mins (2019-04-04 14:46:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I've just noticed that your question doesn't match what the text says, so you'll have to tweak my translation to incorporate "cinéma ethnologique". Something like "consisted mainly of ethnographic documentaries made by a handful of priests".
Peer comment(s):
agree Caterina Aguiló
2 mins
neutral Tom Weber : It seems to be true from your excellent source that Quebec film was dominated by the church, but that is not in the text, which only says "s'incarnait," so I support your note with "consisted mainly"
30 mins
Thanks! So you agree with my amended answer.
agree Ph_B (X) : "consisted mainly of ethnographic documentaries made by a handful of priests"
55 mins
agree Alexandra Speirs : I agree with the ethnographic documentaries
3 hrs
agree Yvonne Gallagher : "consisted mainly of ethnographic documentaries made by a handful of priests"
3 hrs
agree Charles Davis : Depending on what "il" refers to, your last suggestion is suitable.
23 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you."
+1
2 hrs

when it was represented by [the X of] a handful of priests [clergymen, etc.]

I'm assuming that the "il" in "il s'incarnait" refers to Canadian (or maybe French-Canadian) cinema. That assumption is based on the reference to "cinéma éthnologique" and the fact that all the names are French-Canadian movie directors or movie actors.

So the full translation would be, "when it was represented by the ethnological films of a handful of priests" (or clergymen, or clerics, or priests and nuns, or even Catholics -- you know the context so you'll know which translation of "religieux" works best here).

Peer comment(s):
agree Shabelula : Reverso Context would also give this verb as "represented" by
26 mins
neutral philgoddard : I don't understand the difference between "consisted of" and "represented by".
56 mins
It's subtle, but "X consisted of Y" means X was entirely made up of Y. "X was represented by Y" leaves wiggle room: maybe ethnographic films by priests were most, but not all of the earliest Canadian cinema.
Something went wrong...
5 hrs

when it (Canada/Quebec cinema) was figuratively given flesh and blood by a handful of clerics

We do need to know what the 'il' - le Canada from the opening para - refers to and perhaps, before Easter Time, instead of flat translations, to retain the religious imagery or metaphor of incarnation as, according to the Latin root, being 'embodied' in flesh.

An alternative like 'fleshed out' would suggest expanded on-
Example sentence:

Religion the Christian sacrament of the Eucharist flesh and blood, an expression of the church father Justin Martyr

Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flesh_and_Blood

Something went wrong...
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