Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
Aujourd'hui, maman est morte (Camus)
English translation:
Today, my mother died
Added to glossary by
Yvonne Gallagher
Oct 23, 2021 14:27
2 yrs ago
73 viewers *
French term
Aujourd'hui, maman est morte (Camus)
French to English
Art/Literary
Poetry & Literature
Posting this because I read an old article in the New Yorker about the translation of Camus' "The Stranger," and it just baffles me that there was ever any disagreement about how to translate this line. Why is it hard???
Article: https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/lost-in-translat...
I'm interested in hearing arguments for the various options. I personally don't see how it could be anything other than "Today, mom died" (or "mum died" for UK translators). But apparently there was heated debate! What's your opinion?
Article: https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/lost-in-translat...
I'm interested in hearing arguments for the various options. I personally don't see how it could be anything other than "Today, mom died" (or "mum died" for UK translators). But apparently there was heated debate! What's your opinion?
Proposed translations
(English)
4 +7 | Today, my mother died | Yvonne Gallagher |
4 +2 | Mother died today. | Conor McAuley |
3 -1 | It was today that dear mother passed away; in the here and now, mom is no longer with us | Adrian MM. |
Change log
Oct 30, 2021 01:42: Yvonne Gallagher Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
+7
14 mins
Selected
Today, my mother died
Interesting article.
I read this in the original French for my BA degree years ago and that's the way I understood the first sentence (in my head) and how I'd translate it. I never read it in translation and don't really agree with any of these suggestions.
Mommy, Mom, Mum and Mama, Maman are all too childish IMHO
Yes, "Mother" is a bit cold and denotes a distance between them so I'd add "my" which brings them closer and which I think is just right to denote the relationship.
I'd also keep the structure of foregrounding "Today" which emphasises the fact that this is a portentous day in the writer's life
I read this in the original French for my BA degree years ago and that's the way I understood the first sentence (in my head) and how I'd translate it. I never read it in translation and don't really agree with any of these suggestions.
Mommy, Mom, Mum and Mama, Maman are all too childish IMHO
Yes, "Mother" is a bit cold and denotes a distance between them so I'd add "my" which brings them closer and which I think is just right to denote the relationship.
I'd also keep the structure of foregrounding "Today" which emphasises the fact that this is a portentous day in the writer's life
Peer comment(s):
agree |
ormiston
: Also feel that the register doesn't match mom/mum/mummy
16 mins
|
Many thanks:-)
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agree |
Philippa Smith
: Totally agree with you Yvonne: interesting article but don't agree with the author's conclusion. "my mother" is exactly what I'd use.
18 mins
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Many thanks:-)
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agree |
Katarina Peters
: 100%
30 mins
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Many thanks:-)
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agree |
Tony M
: Totally agree with your analysis regarding 'Maman'
2 hrs
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Thanks Tony:-) Well I had to analyse the whole book back in 2000. and it really made an impression. Would definitely recommend you read it.
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agree |
Jennifer White
: "Mother died today - or maybe it was yesterday, I don't know". Heard this many times and studied it too, many moons ago.........
3 hrs
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Many thanks:-)
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agree |
Carol Gullidge
6 hrs
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Many thanks:-)
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agree |
Yolanda Broad
2 days 21 hrs
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Many thanks:-)
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
-1
2 hrs
French term (edited):
Aujourd'hui, maman est morte
It was today that dear mother passed away; in the here and now, mom is no longer with us
I've added, pace Tony M., another interpretation.
My first reading to lessen the impact on the reader of a literal translation and cushion the blow with a rhyme.
Psychics would say: 'passed to the other side'
Otherwise, the literary line that I recall better from school: 'L'enfer, c'est les autres': Jean-Paul Sartre.
My first reading to lessen the impact on the reader of a literal translation and cushion the blow with a rhyme.
Psychics would say: 'passed to the other side'
Otherwise, the literary line that I recall better from school: 'L'enfer, c'est les autres': Jean-Paul Sartre.
Example sentence:
Five months after my mother passed away, the parent of one of my students died
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
Carol Gullidge
: There’s absolutely no need to embroider the text or cushion the blow simply because this is a “literary” question
3 hrs
|
It's not a tabloid newspaper headline, either. This is the 21st Century where literary works - including the Bible and stage plays - are retranslated in the light of modern sensitivities and death-ridden taboos.
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neutral |
Julie Barber
: how about "went up in a puff of smoke?" :-))
1 day 19 hrs
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We Brits vs. Americans like to be euphemistic and passed away - unlike died today - is not meant as a newspaper headline. Otherwise, this question - about a novel I read for Oxbridge A-levels - seems to have opened up an Irish hornets' nest.
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+2
15 hrs
Mother died today.
http://www.naturalthinker.net/trl/texts/Camus,Albert/TheStra...
From first US translation and edition.
I don't necessarily agree with it, but there's rarely just one way of translating a sentence in literature.
I don't see the end for endless debate and artificial controversy either.
I read it in secondary school.
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Note added at 15 hrs (2021-10-24 06:26:44 GMT)
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see the need
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Note added at 1 day 4 hrs (2021-10-24 18:55:37 GMT)
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"Mother" is probably more in tune with what would be said in UK English at the time by a man of a certain class, whereas "Maman" sounds plaintive, sad.
Mother, maman, mom, mommy, mum, mummy, mam, mammy, etc., etc., all have connotations.
I wouldn't condemn the character based on either translation, personally.
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Note added at 1 day 4 hrs (2021-10-24 18:59:35 GMT)
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Actually, more actually, I wouldn't condemn the character based on any of the three "contenders" I've seen (the one posted by Yvonne, the "Maman" one, or the 1946 one). It seems that is the crux of the debate.
From first US translation and edition.
I don't necessarily agree with it, but there's rarely just one way of translating a sentence in literature.
I don't see the end for endless debate and artificial controversy either.
I read it in secondary school.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 hrs (2021-10-24 06:26:44 GMT)
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see the need
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 4 hrs (2021-10-24 18:55:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
"Mother" is probably more in tune with what would be said in UK English at the time by a man of a certain class, whereas "Maman" sounds plaintive, sad.
Mother, maman, mom, mommy, mum, mummy, mam, mammy, etc., etc., all have connotations.
I wouldn't condemn the character based on either translation, personally.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 4 hrs (2021-10-24 18:59:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Actually, more actually, I wouldn't condemn the character based on any of the three "contenders" I've seen (the one posted by Yvonne, the "Maman" one, or the 1946 one). It seems that is the crux of the debate.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Jennifer White
: See my comment to Yvonne posted yesterday. Quite a silly debate, I agree.
4 hrs
|
Thanks Jennifer! There's no "ma" in the French, so why put "my" in the English?
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agree |
Yolanda Broad
2 days 5 hrs
|
Thank you very much, Yolanda!
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Reference comments
2 hrs
Reference:
First paragraph of novel
Aujourd’hui, maman est morte. Ou peut-être hier, je ne sais pas. J’ai reçu un télégramme de l’asile : « Mère décédée. Enterrement demain. Sentiments distingués. » Cela ne veut rien dire. C’était peut-être hier.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree |
SafeTex
2 days 3 hrs
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agree |
Yolanda Broad
2 days 18 hrs
|
15 hrs
Reference:
First paragraph of English translation by Matthew Ward
The book in pdf format is downloadabe for free in the reference link
Maman died today. Or yesterday maybe, I don't know.
I got a telegram from the home: "Mother deceased.
Funeral tomorrow. Faithfully yours." That doesn't mean
anything. Maybe it was yesterday
Maman died today. Or yesterday maybe, I don't know.
I got a telegram from the home: "Mother deceased.
Funeral tomorrow. Faithfully yours." That doesn't mean
anything. Maybe it was yesterday
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree |
Conor McAuley
: Maman works I think, strangely.
28 mins
|
agree |
Yolanda Broad
2 days 6 hrs
|
Discussion
And I would omit the possessive pronoun for the same reason: Camus could've included "ma" in his sentence, but he chose not to.
I don't love keeping "Maman" in French. Why not just use the word that an adult man would use to name or address his mother: Mom (US), or Mum (most other EN-speaking countries)? And "Maman" doesn't sound distant in French, so why use a more formal or distancing word such as "Mother"?
Would that be a revolving door by any chance?🤣🤣🤣
As I've said a couple of times before, we can keep "foreign" words where they add to the flavour of the book and are clear for English speakers, and "maman" is not therefore ruled out.
I also feel it's like a proper noun (I know it isn't of course), in that for nearly all children of whatever age, they don't call their mothers by their first names but use "maman" (in French) or "mum" or whatever in English speaking countries. So as it is used like a proper noun and we don't normally translate proper nouns, I think we can leave it. Note that "Mother" etc. is often capitalized like in "Dear Mother", suggesting a proper noun
Also, bearing in mind that the English version will be read by anglophones over the world, you avoid having to make a choice between Mum, mother, Ma, Mom etc. which as you can see on this forum, is not so easy.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mam
https://www.answers.com/Q/Do_Irish_people_say_'mom'...
Typically Mam or Ma is used by Irish people. Ma would usually be considered more working class. Smaller children say Mammy, though in rural areas and among women, Mammy can continue to be used into adulthood. Few people say Mum, which is more of an English idiom, though it can be occasionally be heard in middle-class families especially in suburban areas. Mom has begun to creep in with the current generation of young parents being more Americanised in their speech.
https://books.google.ie/books/about/The_Mammy.html?id=HjDaNm...
The other parts of your post I can't be bothered debating, but contain substantial inaccuracies and/or opinion passed off as fact.
"Today" sets the tone for Meursault's existentialist living-in-the-moment (though he does consider the past and future on a few occasions), his detachment and lack of emotion. Anyway, I wouldn't insist on this position. But reiterate that this question is primarily about "Maman" as we could also go into a long debate about the title translation (i.e. is "The Stranger" better then "The Outsider"?). Let's not get sidetracked
and they too will be at the end of their sentences in all probability
I also like "maman' in the English version I posted so I would have said
"Maman died today"
It's important that Meursault should not sound affectionate. As the author of the New Yorker article observes, he lives his life entirely in the moment - but this because he lacks the emotional imagination to see forward or backward, so when his mother dies, his affection dies too. Her death arguably untethers him in a way that sets off the rest of the novel's events, his act of murder and his ultimate embrace of his own death, but he does not grieve.
I posted the link at 4.33 pm
“Aujourd'hui, maman est morte. Ou peut-être hier, je ne sais pas. J'ai reçu un télégramme de l'asile : « Mère décédée. Enterrement demain. Sentiments distingués. » Cela ne veut rien dire. C'était peut-être hier.”
The fact that FR uses 'être mort' for both 'to be dead' and 'to have died' creates an ambiguity not present in EN.
L'auteur a reçu un télégramme qui n'indique pas la date exacte de la mort. D'où la virgule qui selon moi est justifiée.