This question was closed without grading. Reason: Other
Jul 1, 2013 12:38
11 yrs ago
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Croatian term

vangruntovno vlasništvo

Croatian to English Law/Patents Real Estate
As I understand it, this is ownership of immovable property that does not include the land on which the property is found. Phrase in English?
Change log

Jul 3, 2013 17:06: Mira Stepanovic changed "Language pair" from "Serbian to English" to "Croatian to English"

Discussion

Mark Daniels (asker) Jul 6, 2013:
Closing... Thanks for all the suggestions - I can't really choose a "correct" answer unfortunately. I agreed on a hazy translation with the customer along the lines of "unregistered land", as it was not really important to be specific in the context, but I think the jury is still out on a definite translation of the term, so I wouldn't want to leave the impression there was such a term for anyone researching in the future.
Daryo Jul 4, 2013:
I've done some searching out of curiosity, and gruntovnica/gruntovno vlasništvo seems to be used as much in Croatian as in Serbian; but there's another term for the same thing that's possibly more used: "vanknjižno vlasništvo" - literally "out-of-the-books ownership"
Mark Daniels (asker) Jul 3, 2013:
Language Thanks for the discussion on this, I see there is a difference of opinion on what language variant this expression belongs to, including one inexplicably and unacceptably offensive comment by a member which was thankfully removed by a member of site staff. I am honestly not bothered whether we consider this Croatian or Serbian but I should point out that this phrase is very common here in Vojvodina and was used in this text by a Belgrade law firm. Anyway, I will actually wait to see what translation they commonly use and may have to call this one unresolved as I cannot say for sure if there is one "correct" answer.

Proposed translations

-1
59 mins

property not regisstered in the cadastre

Peer comment(s):

disagree Kolumbina Benčević Tomljanović : katastar ne bilježi vlasništvo, nego to čini u okviru tzv. gruntovnog postupka, tj. upisa u zemljišne knjige (land register)
2 days 4 hrs
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1 day 3 hrs

ownership acquired by way of adverse possession

As I lawyer I might shed some light to your legal-language dilemma. The thing is that literal translation of the term you posted is closest to the one that Daryo proposed – unregistered land/real property ownership. But your description of the term and the way you understand it refers to something different. It seems to me like a situation where a certain building has been erected on the land that does not belong to the owner of a building. Although it may seem as very unusual, trust me that this sort of legal situation is rather regular than exceptional especially because it originates from the communist era when private ownership was not cherished that much. Anyway, according to our laws, there is possibility that people acquire ownership over such real property/land by way of peaceful, continuous and undisturbed possession over certain period of time. In Serbian it is called održaj and English term for that is adverse possesion. So, I propose the following translation: ownership acquired by way of adverse possession or eventually actual/factual ownership. Please consider my proposals as an alternative to what Daryo proposed as its suitability depends on the context in which the term is used.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Daryo : you are narrowing the meaning too much - adverse possession is just one of many possible situations leading to unregistered ownership.
2 days 57 mins
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+2
1 hr

unregistered land ownership

ownership (of land in the sense of "immovable property") that hasn't been registered in official registers (Land registry, Cadastres etc...), or in some cases, more precisely "still registered to some previous owner".

In Serbia, it's an ownership on land that hasn't been recorded in official registers but is provable only by a chain of contracts starting with the registered owner.

as in
"Kako kupiti garažu čiji vlasnik po knjigama ne postoji ..."
[http://www.kupovinanekretnine.info/saveti/2012/04/25/kako-ku...]


The rough equivalent in UK would an "unregistered land"

"Unregistered land in English law

Unregistered land in English law is land that has not been registered with HM Land Registry. In unregistered land proof of title is based upon historical title deeds.
..."

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unregistered_land_in_English_la...]

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Note added at 3 days5 hrs (2013-07-04 17:52:54 GMT)
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another term commonly used, in Serbia as much as in Croatia: "vanknjižno vlasništvo"

"Vanknjižno vlasništvo je najnormalnija stvar. Kupio neko zemljište, sagradio kuću, ali nije otišao u katastar da je uknjiži. Njegova je definitivno ..."
[http://arhiva.elitesecurity.org/t255394-Kupovina-nadzidjivan...]

"Ukoliko je u pitanju vanknjižno vlasništvo , onda je jako bitno da utvrdite da li je kod predhodnog sticanja regulisan porez ( da li je plaćen, da li to lice ..."
[http://www.besplatnapravnapomoc.rs/2012/05/molim-vas-da-me-s...]
and in fact there was a question about vanknjižno vlasništvo 7 years ago:

Serbian term or phrase: vanknjižni vlasnik
English translation: unregistered (property) owner
[http://www.proz.com/kudoz/serbian_to_english/real_estate/142...]
Peer comment(s):

agree Kolumbina Benčević Tomljanović
2 days 4 hrs
Хвала!
agree helena-croatia
2 days 21 hrs
Хвала!
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