Glossary entry

English term or phrase:

they hold perfection

English answer:

they believe in the doctrine of perfection (freedom from original sin)

Added to glossary by Charles Davis
May 7, 2012 09:42
12 yrs ago
English term

They hold perfection

English Art/Literary Religion ancient book about Christian doctrine
Use one: If original sin be propagated to us, and will be inherent in us while we live here, it confutes the Libertines and Quakers, who say they are without sin. ***They hold perfection***; they show much pride and ignorance; but we see the seeds of original sin remain in the best. There is not a just man lives and sins not.' Eccl 7:70. And Paul complained of a body of death.' Rom 7:74. Though grace purifies nature, it does not perfect it.
Change log

May 14, 2012 07:50: Charles Davis Created KOG entry

Discussion

Judith Hehir May 9, 2012:
To Ana Juliá: If I am not mistaken, the point is that original sin, which is "inherent in us" on this side of the grave (even despite our redemption) refutes the Quaker notion that the redeemed are entirely free of sin while still on this side of the grave. A quote from http://www.quakerinfo.com/quakprot.shtml: The Protestants were continually disturbed by an inner sense of guilt and original sin, and often felt they were choosing between sins. Quakers balanced the concept of original sin with the idea that redemption and regeneration could actually free humans from sin.

Responses

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they believe in the doctrine of perfection (freedom from original sin)

"Hold" here means to maintain or subscribe to an opinion, as in "holding a view":

"Hold
5. [with object] have (a belief or opinion):
I feel nothing but pity for someone who holds such chauvinistic views
[with clause]:
they hold that all literature is empty of meaning"
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/hold?q=hold

"Perfection" refers to the doctrine of perfection, a key element in Quaker belief and a highly notorious one in the period when Watson was writing. It is articulated by early Quakers in the mid-seventeenth century, such as George Fox, and Robert Barclay in the 8th proposition of his Apology for the True Christian Divinity (1678). It means not precisely that there is no such thing as original sin, but that it is possible to reach a state, in this life, of freedom from original sin, equivalent to the state of man before the Fall: a state of immunity from sin and from the temptation to sin. It is diametrically opposed to the views of puritans such as Watson.

"Concerning Perfection
In whom this pure and holy birth is fully brought forth, the body of death and sin comes to be crucified and removed, and their hearts united and subjected to the Truth: so as not to obey any suggestions or temptations of the evil one, but to be free from actual sinning and transgressing of the law of God, and in that respect perfect: yet doth this perfection still admit of a growth; and there remaineth always, in some part, a possibility of sinning, where the mind doth not most diligently and watchfully attend unto the Lord."
http://www.qhpress.org/texts/barclay/apology/prop8.html

"This covenant of peace, or state of perfection, was expressed by Fox in an earlier, 1648, opening in which he saw himself return to the state of Adam before the fall. He wrote in his Journal "now I was come up in spirit through the flaming sword into the paradise of God. All things were new and all the creation gave another smell unto me than before, beyond what words can utter. I knew nothing but pureness, and innocency, and righteousness, being renewed up into the image of God by Christ Jesus, so that I say I was come up to the state of Adam which he was in before he fell."6 He felt himself taken back to before the fall and original sin.
This doctrine of perfection held by Quakers, though few actually claimed perfection for themselves, was central to the message of George Fox. It stood in contrast to the doctrine of human depravity held by the puritans, and with the Anglicans and Roman Catholics which were seen to emphasize ritual which had become empty."
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/pea-quakers-01.html

"The following discourse passed between Thomas Powell, who calls himself a minister of the gospel, and John Vaughton, a Quaker, the 29th of the 2d. mo., 1676.
T. Powell.--You Quakers hold damnable and erroneous doctrines.
J. Vaughton.--What doctrine is it that we hold that is erroneous and damnable?
T. P. — You hold perfection."
Society of Friends, The Friend, vol. 11 (1838)
http://books.google.es/books?id=Uj8rAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA383&lpg=PA...

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Note added at 7 hrs (2012-05-07 16:52:25 GMT)
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This use of "hold" meaning to believe or profess a religious doctrine, illustrated in my last reference, was common usage up to the nineteenth century, and is found even today:

"EUCHARIST
Catechism #1322-1419
[...]
5. Beliefs of Other Christians
Catholics hold transubstantiation, change of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ.
Lutherans hold consubstantiation - bread and wine and Jesus’ body and blood coexist together.
Calvinists (Presbyterians) hold a symbolic belief with the Eucharist being truly grace bearing."
http://www.rciaresources.com/TalkOutlineFiles/Eucharist.htm

"Therefore, when we dispute against them that hold transubstantiation, and the ubiquity of Christ's body, we do assuredly conclude that sense is judge, whether there be real bread and wine present, or not"
Richard Baxter (1831)
http://books.google.es/books?id=0FlCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA210&lpg=PA...
Peer comment(s):

agree katsy
2 hrs
Thanks, katsy :)
agree Phong Le
9 hrs
Thanks, Phong Le :)
agree William Howden
23 hrs
Thanks, William! I'm grateful to have confirmation from a specialist.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you!"
13 mins

exemplary

they believe themselves to be exemplary, custodians of perfection
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2 mins

they are born without original sin

= perfect/unblemished

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Note added at 9 mins (2012-05-07 09:51:40 GMT)
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the general view is that everyone is born with original sin, which is removed only upon christening so until such time no one is innocent or sinless. The Quaker view is different. See here(paragraph "the light within")

What is “original sin”? “Original sin” is the idea that the sinfulness of Adam and Eve, their prideful disobedience of God, has been transmitted to all humankind as their descendants. That is, before we actually do anything in life, we are born in a condition of sinfulness, a condition of estrangement or separation from God due to pride and disobedience. This is the human condition.

We noted above that the words “original sin” do not occur in the biblical account of the Fall of humankind. In fact, this is not a biblical term at all, but one that originated in the theology of a great Church father, St. Augustine. According to Augustine (d. 430), prior to the Fall, human beings were able not to sin; after the Fall, we are unable not to sin. No matter what we do, we sin.

http://www.universalistfriends.org/quf2009.html

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Note added at 11 mins (2012-05-07 09:53:54 GMT)
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http://www.quaker.us/inwardlight.html

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Note added at 14 mins (2012-05-07 09:56:47 GMT)
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http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h486.htmlor from here



They believed that all people were equal in the eyes of God and, therefore, equality should prevail throughout society. The Friends also rejected the Calvinist conceptions of original sin and predestination.
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6 hrs

they embody entire sanctification

a finished process, in other words, as opposed to an ongoing process of sanctification
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