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Gurkengewürz
MFKl-Basis

Glossary entry

German term or phrase:

aus *gleich* mehreren Gründen

English translation:

on several grounds

Added to glossary by Elizabeth Niklewska
Jul 10, 2017 09:13
7 yrs ago
German term

aus *gleich* mehreren Gründen

German to English Law/Patents Law (general)
Documentation of legal proceedings.

Begründung

A. Widerklage

Die Widerklage ist sowohl unzulässig als auch unbegründet.

I. Zulässigkeit

Die Widerklage ist aus *gleich* mehreren Gründen unzulässig.


The countersuit/counterclaim is inadmissible for several reasons

I can't see what to do with "gleich" - the translation examples I have seen left it out like I have so far
Proposed translations (English)
3 +4 on several grounds
3 +6 for several reasons
3 +4 for more than one reason
5 inadmissible for multiple reasons
4 for no less than several reasons
4 -2 inadmissible even for several reasons

Discussion

Ramey Rieger (X) Jul 11, 2017:
Hi Maria, Yes, you're right.
Maria S. Loose, LL.M. Jul 11, 2017:
I agree with Bjorn that "gleich" is an intensifier in German and should be expressed somehow in English. When I did my MA in translation studies (some 40 years ago) I wrote a paper on German particles and one of the conclusions was that the German speaker's intention when using these particles could sometimes be expressed in English by means of the speaker's intonation. This, of course, is not possible in written English. Therefore, I think that Björn's solution of "not one, but several" adequately expresses the author's intention. When using "gleich", the author really wants to emphasize the fact that there are several reasons.
Ramey Rieger (X) Jul 11, 2017:
hi Björn Justify away! As I said, you are entitled, so is everyone else.
Björn Vrooman Jul 11, 2017:
If it were just "several," the German should read:
"Die Widerklage ist aus mehreren Gründen unzulässig."

As said somewhere else, legal studies were part of my university degree, so I know that the above sentence sounds perfectly normal without "gleich." This makes the word the most crucial part of the statement because there wasn't any need (whatsoever) to add it in German.

And I don't believe "simultaneously" is an apt translation; neither is "at the same time." It's not "zeitgleich," but "gleich."

Duden, second meaning of "gleich":
"erstaunlicherweise auf einmal, zugleich"
http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/gleich_prompt_daneben

The part in bold is where it gets interesting. It's not just the fact that there is more than one reason for dismissal; as Michael correctly points out, it's the difference between what you expected and and what you did not expect--that's why it's an intensifier.

Plus, I've already discussed this at home (DE-US); the second issue is that you can't emphasise "several" as you could when uttering the words. Here, it's in writing, so the nuance may be lost, depending on how the reader interprets the statement. Nothing wrong with a pointer.
Ramey Rieger (X) Jul 11, 2017:
Hi Björn Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. We all are. We are translating, not editing. I kindly disagree with this statement:
"However "gleich" here is THE most important point of the message."

You COULD add... at the same time, at once, simultaneously ... it remains that there is more than one reason, plural, period.
Björn Vrooman Jul 11, 2017:
And here, in a legal context, as in "hier liegen gleich mehrere Verbrechen vor":
"In addition 'prolix pleading may have some psychological effect upon the jury by suggesting to it that defendant has committed not one but several crimes'."
http://muldoongetz.com/issue36.html

I don't see any justification for omitting the word here, sorry.

Best wishes
Björn Vrooman Jul 11, 2017:
Here are three articles on the topic:
http://sites.utexas.edu/legalwriting/2017/01/12/intensifiers...
https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/events/family_la...
http://www.law.du.edu/documents/enrlp/DuVivier/july 1994.pdf

It says avoid overuse or "circumvent," but it doesn't say banish them. Additionally, I'd like to point out that both Anne and I used a phrase--not an adjective such as "clearly--to put more emphasis on the number in the statement. That's not the same.

BTW, there are questions like:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/furniture_househ...

In this(!) context, "crisper drawer" is all you need because it's not even the main/crucial part of the sentence. However "gleich" here is THE most important point of the message.

"Hättest du mir das doch gleich gesagt!" - "You should've told me sooner!"

"Hab ich mir doch gleich gedacht!" - "That's what I thought all along."
Björn Vrooman Jul 11, 2017:
There are a) some German particles--such as "ja"--that cannot be translated, b) many idioms, etc. that will have to be adapted and c) phrases that are repeated in German, but shouldn't be in English.

"gleich" doesn't belong in any of these categories. It's an intensifier and even Wiki will tell you--source or no source--that's nothing unusual in legal writing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intensifier

What's more, there is no need (!!) to use "gleich" in German. Just google for "aus mehreren Gründen" if you don't believe me. It's a subtle (or not-so-subtle) hint. The same is true for:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/law_general/6358...

-> gerade = indeed, in fact

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/german_to_english/law_general/6358...

-> überhaupt nicht = not, in any way,

What you're doing is editing, not translating, which is OK only if the customer agreed to it (this isn't marketing). I can understand the need for clarity and conciseness, but quite often, I get the feeling around here that words are thrown out, because they are a) not convenient or b) too troublesome.
Ramey Rieger (X) Jul 11, 2017:
@Björn Please realize, that the difference is in GERMAN, NOT in English. It makes no difference whether I emphasize the 'not one' or not. In English this would be highly redundant in this context. Although it does have its merits in other contexts.
Sangeeta Joshi Jul 11, 2017:
Agree with Bjoern.
Maria S. Loose, LL.M. Jul 10, 2017:
Agree with Bjorn: There is not one, but several reasons to deem the counterclaim inadmissible.
Björn Vrooman Jul 10, 2017:
@Elizabeth Just a suggestion, so I don't clutter up the page:
"But the letter sent to Appellant by the Commission stated not one, but several reasons for disqualification. -- Scott v. Macy, 402 F.2d 644, 651 (D.C. Cir. 1968)"
https://www.ravellaw.com/opinions/b2ee9a5758eeaa18a8efacbd22...

"There is not one, but several reasons to reverse this decision."
http://www.philadelphiabar.org/WebObjects/PBAReadOnly.woa/Co...

There's a distinct difference between "es gibt mehrere Gründe" and "es gibt gleich mehrere Gründe." If you read between the lines, the latter tells you it's basically hopeless to try and argue those points again. It's a slap-down.

Proposed translations

+4
1 hr
German term (edited): aus gleich mehreren Gründen
Selected

on several grounds

I believe 'grounds' is more frequently used than 'reasons' in legal parlance, hence '... is inadmissible(,) on several grounds'. 'Gleich' need not necessarily be rendered in the English version in my view, but the comma might do this 'job' if required.

See, for example,

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/GA/ALL/?uri=CELEX:620...
"The Commission contends that the application is manifestly inadmissible on several grounds."

https://opcedaw.wordpress.com/2012/06/11/domestic-violence-a...
"The U.K. contested the admissibility of the communication on several grounds."

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/scanning-for-terrorism--brain-...
"In Australia, the High Court has yet to consider the validity of polygraph evidence, but in 1982 a district court in NSW deemed it inadmissible on several grounds – including that it was hearsay evidence."

http://www.ijrcenter.org/2015/08/05/ecthr-italys-failure-to-...
"In April 2010, the Italian Constitutional Court declared the constitutional challenge inadmissible on several grounds and rejected the applicants’ claim of a violation of the right to equality."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2017-07-10 10:55:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

... or 'on more than one ground', if 'gleich' still appears relevant to you.

See examples at

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1527137.html
"... Cf. Corona-Mendez v. Holder, 593 F.3d 1143, 1147 (9th Cir.2010) (holding that “otherwise admissible” prong of the fraud waiver at 8 U.S.C. § 1227(a)(1)(H) “requires that the court consider whether the petitioner is inadmissible on more than one ground at the time of the fraud the petitioner seeks waived”) ..."

https://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/01/24/is-strasbourg-obses...
"Second, it is very difficult to break down the 955 inadmissible applications into clear categories. A sizeable proportion of the cases will be inadmissible on more than one ground, ..."
Peer comment(s):
agree Maria S. Loose, LL.M.
4 mins
agree Anne Schulz : "Grounds" klingt ja doch schon gleich(!) viel gewichtiger :-) Ich würde allerdings auch hier "more than one" vorziehen, wie in deinen letzten Refs.
37 mins
agree writeaway : also ok. grounds or reasons both work in the context. this is legalese here but it's used in everyday German too
48 mins
agree AllegroTrans
3 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks - I went for your suggestion as it is more attuned with "legalese". I thought "gleich" seemed unnecessary, so thanks to everyone than confirmed it was not essential. Thanks for the other suggestions, too."
+6
2 mins

for several reasons

I would throw it out.
Peer comment(s):
agree Edith Kelly
39 mins
agree BrigitteHilgner
42 mins
agree writeaway : everyday German imo. grounds may be more legalese but reasons isn't wrong.
2 hrs
agree Eleanore Strauss : maybe add simultaneous or simultaneously
4 hrs
agree AllegroTrans
4 hrs
agree Eva-Maria Fried
4 hrs
Something went wrong...
-2
9 mins

inadmissible even for several reasons

that´s what is implied by "gleich"
Peer comment(s):
neutral Edith Kelly : that's not English, the "even" sounds very odd.
33 mins
disagree Maria S. Loose, LL.M. : Agree with EdithK
1 hr
disagree AllegroTrans : "even" turns this into an unnatural phrase, and it's not necessary to translate "gleich"
4 hrs
Something went wrong...
+4
1 hr
German term (edited): aus gleich mehreren Gründen

for more than one reason

Another option, as the word "gleich" stresses the fact that there is not just one reason for dismissal.
Peer comment(s):
agree Armorel Young
10 mins
Thanks Armorel – a native, competent Agree means a lot to me when it comes to nuances :-)
agree Kim Metzger : Or "on more grounds than one"
2 hrs
Thanks Kim, and: see above :-)
agree Björn Vrooman : See similar option in d-box. Couldn't care less about the number of agreements in this context. You translate what's there--as if every German judge were to use "gleich" in this type of sentence. I just dislike "Kahlschlag" if it's not necessary.
7 hrs
Danke Björn :-) Deinen Vorschlag "not one, but several reasons for dismissal" finde ich auch gut – stell es doch als Antwort ein!
agree Sangeeta Joshi
17 hrs
Thank you Sangeeta :-)
Something went wrong...
5 hrs

inadmissible for multiple reasons

The word "gleich" adds nothing to the core meaning. It means "for multiple reasons 'at the same time'", but this formulation is not common or professional in English.
Something went wrong...
17 hrs

for no less than several reasons

"The counterclaim is inadmissible for no less than several reasons."

"Gleich" should neither remain untranslated, nor should it be translated as “at the same time”.

Its purpose is to emphasize the contrast between the expected (one reason for inadmissibility) and the unexpected (as many as a handful of reasons)
Peer comment(s):
neutral AllegroTrans : "no less than several" sounds very unnatural and doesn't intensify "several" in my opinion
12 hrs
At the very least, I am addressing the issue. The other solutions don't even look like workarounds
Something went wrong...
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