This site uses cookies. Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site, while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used. For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
Cookie settings
chamarmos à manhã vs. chamarmos a manhã
Fora de eu pensar e de haver quaisquer pensamentos

Glossary entry

Portuguese term or phrase:

começarmos a ver o sol

English translation:

[if] we start to see the sun

Added to glossary by Oliver Simões
Dec 21, 2018 19:32
5 yrs ago
Portuguese term

começarmos a ver o sol

Portuguese to English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature
I'm not sure how to interpret "começarmos" in the context of this poem. Is it a run-on from the previous grammatical structure (i.e. "se chamarmos") or something entirely different? Following the poem is a brief literary analysis, which might help. I'm not just looking for an explanation, but a translation too (hopefully that will fit in nicely). Thank you all.

"A manhã raia. Não: a manhã não raia.
A manhã é uma coisa abstracta, está, não é uma coisa.
Começamos a ver o sol, a esta hora, aqui.
Se o sol matutino dando nas árvores é belo,
É tão belo se chamarmos à manhã "Começarmos a ver o sol"
Como o é se lhe chamarmos a manhã,
Por isso se não há vantagem em por nomes errados às coisas,
Devemos nunca lhes pôr nomes alguns."

"Caeiro considera que os 'nomes' dados às 'cousas' não apresentam qualquer vantagem, pois não representam as coisas em si mesmas e retiram a objectividade do que são. Para Caeiro, associar verbos que representam uma propriedade concreta a um objecto abstracto, é querer objectivar o que é abstracto e adjectivar com características abstractas é criar uma redundância de sentido. Estes 'erros' da linguagem dos homens deve-se ao facto de atribuírem 'nomes errados às cousas'." - https://run.unl.pt/bitstream/10362/7166/1/Alberto Caeiro e a...
Proposed translations (English)
4 for us to start to see the sun
3 that's when we first see the sun around here
3 that's when we start to witness the break of day
3 we begin to catch a glimpse of the sun/the sun coming up

Discussion

Oliver Simões (asker) Dec 25, 2018:
Thank you, Katarina Based on a new insight from our colleague Mark Robertson (on the difference between "chamar à manhã" and "chamar a manhã"), I changed my interpretation (hence my translation too) slightly: Apparently, the phrase in quotes also indicates a condition, (hence the use of brackets,) implying that seeing the sun may or may not happen. The morning, however, takes place regardless, and is beautiful regardless, whether we call it "the morning" or invite it to see the sun with us. As said before, perception (i.e. 'seeing') is a leitmotif in Caeiro's poetry. Seeing the sun would make the morning experience more meaningful. I took Robertson's suggestion, but unfortunately I couldn't give him any points because I had already closed the other question.
Katarina Peters Dec 22, 2018:
Oliveira, I think you are on the right track...keep reading the original text, you will eventually get the gist of it...
Oliver Simões (asker) Dec 22, 2018:
Upon further analysis: I noticed the prevalence of "se" (if) in the poem. It occurs four times, most likely to indicate a condition. It seems like he's saying that IF we call the morning "(whatever is in parentheses)", this is as beautiful as the sun shining upon the trees. The phrase in parentheses appears to indicate a condition, too. It seems like our seeing the sun is a condition for the morning to exist. In other words, there's no morning without the sun as a referential. Furthermore, there is no morning unless we perceive the sun. Perception (i.e. "seeing") is a leitmotif in Caeiro's poetry. Because of the prevalence of "se", I decided to keep it in translation. This is what I have for now:

If the morning sun upon the trees is beautiful,
It's just as beautiful as if we call the morning "[if] we start to see the sun"
Just as it is if we call it morning

Not sure, though, that "as if" conveys what I'm trying to express. Any additional feedback on this is much appreciated.
Oliver Simões (asker) Dec 22, 2018:
Thank you all I haven't made up my mind on this one yet. I'll keep it open for now until further research. Hopefully, I'll find some new insights that will lead me to the right answer.

Proposed translations

50 mins
Selected

for us to start to see the sun

Although this is rather convoluted, this is my interpretation of the entire sentence:

Se o sol matutino dando nas árvores é belo,
É tão belo se chamarmos à manhã \"Começarmos a ver o sol\" =

If the morning sun upon the trees is beautiful,
It's just as beautiful for us to call the morning "/ for us to start to see the sun /"
Something went wrong...
2 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you, Katarina. I think your answer is closest to what I have in mind. Rather than showing purpose ("for us") as you suggested, I decided to keep it as a condition, as explained more in details on the Discussion Board. Thank you all for your comments and suggestions."
1 hr

that's when we first see the sun around here

Sugestão
Something went wrong...
3 hrs

that's when we start to witness the break of day

Another possibility.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2018-12-21 23:58:54 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Or maybe "that's when we start to see the sun rise over the horizon".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 hrs (2018-12-22 00:58:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Or to make it more abstract, "that's when we begin to see the light (things become clearer, enlightenment).
Something went wrong...
6 hrs

we begin to catch a glimpse of the sun/the sun coming up

maybe
Something went wrong...
Close search
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search