| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11] > | Allow site members/users to rate each job posting Thread poster: Robert Forstag
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| It will never be implemented... | Oct 16, 2009 |
traffic is very important from Proz.com and a public "caning" of the agencies which offer low rates will drive them away and Proz will lose the traffic. Remember, Proz is a site both for translators and vendors and such an approach is too biased towards one user to be taken into consideration... a bad score - based on rates - will reflect negatively on an otherwise correct agency and I don't think this can be used as fair measure of business standards.
| | | | Pablo Sainz (X) 
Bolivia
Local time: 18:30
English to Spanish
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| Low pay, low quality | Oct 16, 2009 |
I like the idea in general, but rather than going into ratings of jobs, etc. maybe we should raise awareness among clients and the general public that low pay usually will get them low quality work. In the words of some illuminated mind:
"When you pay peanuts, you get monkeys to do the work"
Now, I don't mean to just sound sarcastic but, in general, tough economic times worldwide have forced the industry into a highly competitive pricing war. ... See more I like the idea in general, but rather than going into ratings of jobs, etc. maybe we should raise awareness among clients and the general public that low pay usually will get them low quality work. In the words of some illuminated mind:
"When you pay peanuts, you get monkeys to do the work"
Now, I don't mean to just sound sarcastic but, in general, tough economic times worldwide have forced the industry into a highly competitive pricing war. But maybe what we should start thinking about is how to veto/force out/destroy (choose the word you like best) bidders from countries which do not even have command of certain languages who present low bids to get certain jobs, and then proceed to sub-contract work from low-wage, desperate-for-work, probably inexperienced translators for even lower prices and continue to destroy the industry.
A clear example is agencies in India getting work for EN>SP translations at USD 0.03/word and then sub-contracting South American/Central American, etc. translators at USD 0.015/0.02 per word. This is a real example. OK, fine. Good for them if they hussle and get the work but who guarantees the quality of the work. Almost certainly the work doesn't go through any form of quality assurance process, right? Although I'm almost certain that there must be some qualified people in India who can probably do the quality control work, the volume is simply overwhelming. So, the end customer gets sloppy, low-quality final work and makes decisions, posts website text, presents bids and projects, etc. as a result of very low quality translations and then wonders why it's not getting the business it has worked so hard to get.
Again, "When you pay peanuts, you get monkeys to do the work" or as the saying goes in South America: "Lo barato cuesta caro" --> "Cheap things are expensive!!!!!!!!!! ▲ Collapse
| | | | eski
Mexico
Local time: 16:30
Member
Spanish to English
+ ...
MODERATOR | I wholeheartedly concur. | Oct 16, 2009 |
First of all, I'd like to commend Robert Forstag, as well as the many other peers who've raised their voices to DO SOMETHING concerning this situation. I have also been been in contact with other ProZ colleagues, especially in recent months, who've expressed their dissatisfaction and concern over the "appalling" (and in some cases, I'd venture to say-offensive) low rates offered by some of the outsourcers in our (SpEn) language pairs.
I'm convinced that this issue is an important one and ... See more First of all, I'd like to commend Robert Forstag, as well as the many other peers who've raised their voices to DO SOMETHING concerning this situation. I have also been been in contact with other ProZ colleagues, especially in recent months, who've expressed their dissatisfaction and concern over the "appalling" (and in some cases, I'd venture to say-offensive) low rates offered by some of the outsourcers in our (SpEn) language pairs.
I'm convinced that this issue is an important one and vital to our wellbeing as translators, proofreaders and interpreters, as it hits us right in one of our most sensitive areas: our pocket! I have no doubt as to the importance of the basis for this concern, and believe that what is needed is to agree on the METHOD(s) used to deal with it.
I've read several of the posts and agree that it would be good to somehow be able to indicate our opinion as to how we feel about the rates offered for a particular job.
It occurs to me that you might have 3, 4 (or whatever) number of buttons; perhaps even COLOR coded, which you could select and thereby indicate WHETHER YOU FEEL that the offer was , for example RED (much lower than acceptable); ORANGE (lower than acceptable); YELLOW (barely acceptable) GREEN ( fair and acceptable)...etc., you get the idea. This would eventually generate a "history" for each outsourcer, (similar to the WWA rating), so that in the future ,you could see whether a particular outsourcer is rate RED, YELLOW. or GREEN. etc., by the translators who've worked with them.
I realize this is a sensitive issue, but one that needs to be dealt with and resolved, and mine is only one suggestion; I'm sure that others will have even better ones.
I think it's important for those of us who feel concerned about the appreciation of their work (and about their income levels as translators) to use this forum to make our voices heard. and hopefully-ProZ will LISTEN and respond with a solution that represents the consensus.
I'd also like to thank Taña Dalglish for having the determiniation, together with Bob Forstag, to articulate and bring forward this issue before our community: hats off to you!
Love,
eski ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Hello Sophie | Oct 16, 2009 |
"The answer is very simple: Why 0.08 ?
For me personally, 0.08 is too low...
ProZ is not a German Website made for the German market, it is a worldwide site made for the worldwide market. I've read many translators reporting that 0.01 € was avery good rate in their country and that they would be happy if all their clients paid that rate. "
Well, since proz is for a worlwide market I would not suggest more than 0.08 € as minimum standard. <... See more "The answer is very simple: Why 0.08 ?
For me personally, 0.08 is too low...
ProZ is not a German Website made for the German market, it is a worldwide site made for the worldwide market. I've read many translators reporting that 0.01 € was avery good rate in their country and that they would be happy if all their clients paid that rate. "
Well, since proz is for a worlwide market I would not suggest more than 0.08 € as minimum standard.
Do you think the translators who accept 0.01 € (gross) are really happy with that rate? I find it hard to imagine no matter where they live and work. ▲ Collapse
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Fabio Descalzi
Uruguay
Local time: 19:30
Member (2004)
German to Spanish
+ ...
Pablo Sainz wrote:
"When you pay peanuts, you get monkeys to do the work" or as the saying goes in South America: "Lo barato cuesta caro" --> "Cheap things are expensive!!!!!!!!!!
I am absolutely convinced about that.
The BlueBoard shows, in general, a "reputation for good payers" - so far, so good. But if something can be implemented in order to show that "good rates are important too", then the struggle for the sake of decent rates would have yet another factor to consider: the very sounding board of this community of translators.
| | | | | Point missed, surely? | Oct 16, 2009 |
Agencies offering this rate, that rate, blah blah blah
As has been pointed out, there are people and places where 0.04 cents (of any kind, it seems) is adequate recompense (in any and all senses). There may have been threads this week talking round the issue of why that is and whether it is right/proper/how economics works/exploitation/globalisation, but quite frankly those with most to say about that particular situation appear to be those least in the position to do anything about... See more Agencies offering this rate, that rate, blah blah blah
As has been pointed out, there are people and places where 0.04 cents (of any kind, it seems) is adequate recompense (in any and all senses). There may have been threads this week talking round the issue of why that is and whether it is right/proper/how economics works/exploitation/globalisation, but quite frankly those with most to say about that particular situation appear to be those least in the position to do anything about positive about it, so ignore the hot air and accept the status quo for current purposes.
Consequently, there will be those who see jobs offering 6 cents (of any stripe) as derisory and others who will think Christmas has come early.
Jobs offering rates....? Y'know, there used to be a time when people on here used to wonder whether agencies ought to be the ones setting the prices at all. I understand the economics of why it happens under some (most?) circumstances (http://www.cbavington.com/Thoughts/WhoSetsPrices.shtml) but I don't see that as meaning we should accept it as a universal default. Indeed, there are solid grounds for arguing that the best agencies and therefore the best job postings will not offer or suggest rates at all. They will ask us how much we charge.
In the supremely unlikely event that this idea grows legs, the best ratings for job postings should be reserved for those that allow the translator to set, or at least negotiate, the rate. Any other job posting is by definiton second rate. ▲ Collapse
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Giovanni wrote:
'It will never be implemented...
traffic is very important from Proz.com and a public "caning" of the agencies which offer low rates will drive them away and Proz will lose the traffic. Remember, Proz is a site both for translators and vendors and such an approach is too biased towards one user to be taken into consideration... a bad score - based on rates - will reflect negatively on an otherwise correct agency and I don't think this can be used as fair measure of ... See more Giovanni wrote:
'It will never be implemented...
traffic is very important from Proz.com and a public "caning" of the agencies which offer low rates will drive them away and Proz will lose the traffic. Remember, Proz is a site both for translators and vendors and such an approach is too biased towards one user to be taken into consideration... a bad score - based on rates - will reflect negatively on an otherwise correct agency and I don't think this can be used as fair measure of business standards.'
Giovanni, I see your point.
But what woul Proz loose by loosing bad agencies? A lot of unnecessary traffic. And how biased are unfair prices? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | So, Henry .... | Oct 16, 2009 |
... this thread is on its fourth page already -- what do you think?
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| New features | Oct 16, 2009 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
I have an alternative idea: Just enhance the already existing Blue Board and keep enhancing it with new features until it satisfies most demands. Just add another option in the blue board "Indicate the price range of this agency" and give options "2-4 cents", "5-7 cents", etc etc.
Much easier and more effective.
This is a nice idea as well. Recently, we can see the number of bids by language pair; it will be nice to also see at least the lowest and highest bid per project and per language pair.
| | | | | It will never happen... | Oct 16, 2009 |
... for one simple reason: it would most certainly result in less income for the site owners, and they know it.
| | | | | Is it Saturday already? | Oct 16, 2009 |
Or is today a bank holiday in the US, Argentina and Ukraine?
The BB just shows if an agency pays, that's it. We need something else,
but I agree with Giovanni and Andreas.
Paola, who gave 1 to an agency that has only 5 on the BB.
[Edited at 2009-10-16 16:28 GMT]
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 18:30
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | It is encouraging to see the overwhelmingly positive response | Oct 16, 2009 |
Thanks to all who have taken the time to respond. In the end, I think that my second idea on this post (i.e., that of simply presenting a graph indicating the offered rate in relation to the average and range of rates) might be the best option. All this involves is presenting objective data that is already at hand. But the "how" of implementation can perhaps be the subject of a separate discussion--a discussion worth having only if there is a credible commitment on the part of staff to actually ... See more Thanks to all who have taken the time to respond. In the end, I think that my second idea on this post (i.e., that of simply presenting a graph indicating the offered rate in relation to the average and range of rates) might be the best option. All this involves is presenting objective data that is already at hand. But the "how" of implementation can perhaps be the subject of a separate discussion--a discussion worth having only if there is a credible commitment on the part of staff to actually do something.
To those who say that there can be no change, or worse yet, that the situation is so dismal that nothing can be done except to deliver rambling soliloquies that warn of the encroaching doom, I can only say that I don't share those views. Nor, apparently, do most of those who have posted on this thread.
[Edited at 2009-10-16 16:39 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| Many job postings don't offer any rate | Oct 16, 2009 |
I'm really happy about this discussion and I really hope that it will bring up some results.
This discussion arised because of job postings offering very low rates, but actually many postings (at least in my pairs) don't offer any rate. So, setting a new evaluating tool in the job posting area might not be the right answer (the fact that an agengy gives translators the possibility to state their own rate doesn't mean that they're going to pay a "fair" rate!). I think that improving ... See more I'm really happy about this discussion and I really hope that it will bring up some results.
This discussion arised because of job postings offering very low rates, but actually many postings (at least in my pairs) don't offer any rate. So, setting a new evaluating tool in the job posting area might not be the right answer (the fact that an agengy gives translators the possibility to state their own rate doesn't mean that they're going to pay a "fair" rate!). I think that improving the BB system might be a better solution.
What's the opinion of the Proz staff?
Ciao,
Cristina ▲ Collapse
| | | | Alessandra Martelli (X)
Italy
Local time: 00:30
English to Italian
+ ...
| Great to see that many of you are willing to discuss the topic | Oct 16, 2009 |
Dear colleagues,
it is really great to see that many of us are willing to DO SOMETHING about the general downgrading trend trying to be proactive, and joined the discussion in a quiet and polite--yet realistic and purposeful--way.
To those of us who say change is not possible - well, you might be right, but as I said in a previous post, if we don't even try change will not come by itself.
I know that there is so much going on beyond the topic itself - we wo... See more Dear colleagues,
it is really great to see that many of us are willing to DO SOMETHING about the general downgrading trend trying to be proactive, and joined the discussion in a quiet and polite--yet realistic and purposeful--way.
To those of us who say change is not possible - well, you might be right, but as I said in a previous post, if we don't even try change will not come by itself.
I know that there is so much going on beyond the topic itself - we won't probably change the world economy, but we can try to make *our* economy better, we can try to "wag the dog", otherwise we will always be the tail, and never the dog itself.
All the best & happy translating
Aless
[Edited for typos]
[Edited at 2009-10-16 17:10 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Thank you for starting the topic and taking the time.
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