| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Testing bricklayers, plumbers and translators Thread poster: Milos Prudek
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Paula James 
Spain
Local time: 13:10
French to English
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| can't compare | Mar 13, 2009 |
I do agree with Charlie that you can't really compare translation with any other profession, I just made the point in response to the original post that plumbers etc. don't work for free.
Basically, if you run a business of any kind, you will have to invest time in marketing of some kind, and on some occasions, for translators, this takes the form of a translation test.
I have to say, I can think of 4 I've done, and 3 of these agencies are now amongst my most important clients, bu... See more I do agree with Charlie that you can't really compare translation with any other profession, I just made the point in response to the original post that plumbers etc. don't work for free.
Basically, if you run a business of any kind, you will have to invest time in marketing of some kind, and on some occasions, for translators, this takes the form of a translation test.
I have to say, I can think of 4 I've done, and 3 of these agencies are now amongst my most important clients, but in all cases their approach to the test showed that they were professional, so it was helpful to me as well in finding out if it was worth working for them (specialised tests, prompt acknowledgement and feedback, etc.). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 13:10
French to German
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| Some related thoughts | Mar 13, 2009 |
Milos Prudek wrote:
I cannot imagine a bricklayer or plumber who would accept this deal. Yet translators are asked to do this...
Has anyone tried this argument with the onslaught of "free translation to enlist into our database" that many translators receive every week?
You get lots of stuff from people who aren’t getting paid anything.
A slim chance of getting paid makes people try hard. Not getting paid makes them try even harder.
This is not specific to the translation industry - I at least call this applied psychology.
(both quotes from Steve Douglas, The Logo Factory)
Laurent K.
[Edited at 2009-03-13 09:51 GMT]
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Paula James wrote:
Basically, if you run a business of any kind, you will have to invest time in marketing of some kind, and on some occasions, for translators, this takes the form of a translation test.
I completely agree. We normally don't have to print expensive, nicely designed binders, brochures, or stationary, make tons of calls or travel to visit our customers every quarter, so we can well invest an hour every week to do a test for new prospects?
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 13:10
French to German
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| An important difference... | Mar 13, 2009 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Paula James wrote:
Basically, if you run a business of any kind, you will have to invest time in marketing of some kind, and on some occasions, for translators, this takes the form of a translation test.
I completely agree. We normally don't have to print expensive, nicely designed binders, brochures, or stationary, make tons of calls or travel to visit our customers every quarter, so we can well invest an hour every week to do a test for new prospects?
from my point of view is that marketing does not commit you in any way to potential clients. Of course, "commitment" per se and in the way I understand it here can be discussed at length. And to add my grain of salt to some previous posts, I can confirm that, in my case, test translations were not replied to 95%, not even with a "See you later, alligator".
Laurent K.
PS: Tomas, thank you for reminding me that I have some brochures to make for my future marketing operations - no irony involved.
[Edited at 2009-03-13 10:11 GMT]
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ScottishWildCat wrote:
And to add my grain of salt to some previous posts, I can confirm that, in my case, test translations were not replied to 95%, not even with a "See you later, alligator".
I think this highlights yet another issue - we don't all have the same experiences as a result of doing tests. I've done about 5, 2 of which led to long-term business relationships.
I have declined dozens at various stages, from simply not responding to fishing emails that said I would need to do one at some stage in the process, to a handful I haven't done once I've seen them, usually as a result of some gut feeling or other, or as a result of extra research.
Maybe if you did fewer, more selective, properly targeted tests, you would get a better strike rate? Or maybe not....
| | | | Tony Keily
Local time: 13:10
Italian to English
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| Damn it, why didn't you suggest this earlier | Mar 13, 2009 |
I just had builders in to do walls, yards and fences for us. I just wish I'd tested them first!
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I quite agree that the work of translators is not comparable to that of builders. However, for large jobs, builders will often come and inspect the premises, go away and issue detailed estimates free of charge which may or may not be accepted, because the potential client may select another builder's estimate. In a way, that's a little like a translator doing an unpaid test for a new client which may or may not lead to actual work.
Not intending to stir up any hornets' nests!
Jenny... See more I quite agree that the work of translators is not comparable to that of builders. However, for large jobs, builders will often come and inspect the premises, go away and issue detailed estimates free of charge which may or may not be accepted, because the potential client may select another builder's estimate. In a way, that's a little like a translator doing an unpaid test for a new client which may or may not lead to actual work.
Not intending to stir up any hornets' nests!
Jenny
P.S. Like Charlie, I've done translation tests in the past, most of which led nowhere, but a few did lead to my acquiring regular and reliable clients.
I presume that builders' estimates also sometimes lead to actual work and even repeat orders too. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 06:10
Greek to English
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well, it may depend on country, but here it is quite common that architects do in fact quite a lot work for free - because quite often there are tenders and competitions.
Yes, but after they pass the test, they are awarded binding contracts, not promises or ambiguities.
"go away and issue detailed estimates free of charge which may or may not be accepted, because the potential client may select another builder's estimate."
This is not a test. It's a... See more well, it may depend on country, but here it is quite common that architects do in fact quite a lot work for free - because quite often there are tenders and competitions.
Yes, but after they pass the test, they are awarded binding contracts, not promises or ambiguities.
"go away and issue detailed estimates free of charge which may or may not be accepted, because the potential client may select another builder's estimate."
This is not a test. It's an estimate. Translators are often asked to do estimates too.
The original point of the person who started this thread, was to note that translators are not treated as fairly as other professionals. Most of the people who replied, tried to find ways to discredit this statement. I guess you people like to argue and disagree... ▲ Collapse
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Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 13:10
French to German
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| Agreeing with you :) | Mar 13, 2009 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
The original point of the person who started this thread, was to note that translators are not treated as fairly as other professionals. Most of the people who replied, tried to find ways to discredit this statement. I guess you people like to argue and disagree...
but as long as fairness is and remains a subjective value, we will tend to argue and disagree, sometimes only for the sake of telling the world: "Well, you know... I am different!"
Laurent K.
| | | | John Rawlins
Spain
Local time: 13:10
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Testing makes you disposable | Mar 13, 2009 |
I feel an important point is perhaps being missed here.
If you are asked to do a test, it is because you are unknown to the agency or client. You are just another translator of the many available. You are disposable, or nearly so.
Clients who contact you because of your reputation, or by recommendation, are unlikely to ask for a test. These are the clients who will not try to hammer you for the cheapest possible price, and the quickest possible delivery. They will gener... See more I feel an important point is perhaps being missed here.
If you are asked to do a test, it is because you are unknown to the agency or client. You are just another translator of the many available. You are disposable, or nearly so.
Clients who contact you because of your reputation, or by recommendation, are unlikely to ask for a test. These are the clients who will not try to hammer you for the cheapest possible price, and the quickest possible delivery. They will generally treat you with respect and consideration.
By simply agreeing to a test, you are entering into a very one-sided relationship that resembles a cattle-market. The relationship may work and prove profitable - but it probably won't prove very rewarding.
My advice is look for clients who will not ask for tests. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Anastasia Naoumi (X)
Greece
Local time: 14:10
English to Greek
| My recent experience | Mar 14, 2009 |
The best thing for a freelancer to do is provide samples of his work when applying to a translation agency. These samples must be associated with his/her specialty fields. I had a really awful experience recently, when two translation tests I did for a Greek agency (each of approximately 200 words-is this too much?) were sent back corrected and most of the corrections were absolutely ridiculous. These people butchered my translation and showed absolutely no respect whatsoever to my stylistic cho... See more The best thing for a freelancer to do is provide samples of his work when applying to a translation agency. These samples must be associated with his/her specialty fields. I had a really awful experience recently, when two translation tests I did for a Greek agency (each of approximately 200 words-is this too much?) were sent back corrected and most of the corrections were absolutely ridiculous. These people butchered my translation and showed absolutely no respect whatsoever to my stylistic choices! Not to mention that they had commented on one of my alleged mistakes by using an English question mark at the end of the sentence (which ofcourse was written in Greek)! I don't know about other Greek translators but to me, this is unacceptable! When you write Greek, use a Greek question mark! I'm not saying my translation was flawless, but I firmly believe that they probably did all those stupid corrections on purpose. Perhaps they were simply looking for a free translation. I'm not the only one who was rejected, as I found out... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | My chief objection about tests is the format | Mar 14, 2009 |
Sometimes agencies send .pdf documents as tests. I would find it more courteous if they were to send a Word document. If they send a .pdf it means that I have to spend time converting and formatting the file before I can even start the test.
However, it gets worse. They can also send you badly converted .pdfs as tests, with all the funny symbols all over the page, where the words were hyphenated at the ends of lines in the original. They may even leave in some nonsensical parts, whe... See more Sometimes agencies send .pdf documents as tests. I would find it more courteous if they were to send a Word document. If they send a .pdf it means that I have to spend time converting and formatting the file before I can even start the test.
However, it gets worse. They can also send you badly converted .pdfs as tests, with all the funny symbols all over the page, where the words were hyphenated at the ends of lines in the original. They may even leave in some nonsensical parts, where Fine Reader could not make sense of the words due to a poor quality copy - and not provide you with the original so that you can find out what it should theoretically say.
The worst case I had of a test was where I had to download some funny program to open some files with a peculiar extension. It somehow wouldn't work, and I wasted the best part of half a day on the matter - only to discover that, once I finally had the files (plural), they were still only "paper copies" - effectively .pdfs - and I still had to start from that point, after all the previous wasted time.
Another test I once did was a paragraph taken out of the middle of the end client's patent document - and was nearly impossible to do, due to lack of context, though it would have not posed a problem if I had been translating the whole patent, from start to finish. I did not even get the job; however, the agency informed me that I was second best out of the people tested. Being second best does not earn you much.
Agencies may care to note: Tests should be (1) Word documents; (2) short; (3) professional test documents providing the opportunity to evaluate certain points - not just any old random chunk of any document.
Astrid ▲ Collapse
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| Reasons why a sample is often not sufficient | Mar 14, 2009 |
Rodna Ruskovska wrote:
Why wouldn't a translation sample be sufficient?
Why does it have to be a 'test'?
What's the difference ...?
Each translator can have samples prepared for every language combination in the majority of fields that they work in ...
There may various reasons. Just from my own experience:
- Often the purpose of the test is not only to assess the quality of the translation, but also to see how well the translator followed the instructions given with the test. For example, when I worked in the translation department of a major software company, we used tests to assess candidates for staff translator positions. The tests were short (about 250 words to translate) portions of longer documents, with clear instructions about what to translate and what not, what to do in case of doubt and so on. We rejected many candidates because they would not read through the instructions: if I am looking for a technical translator when I know that each project will come with detailed instructions, I want to screen out the translators that skip the instructions and plunge directly in the translation. This screening prevents many serious problems later.
- A test translation lets you see how each candidate solved specific translation problems, and compare the quality of a translation with the quality of a different translation of the same source text. This is not possible with translation samples.
- A translation sample lets you present your best work. Fine for you, but less useful for me than seeing how you tackle the type of work I would send you.
- The quality-control process adopted by the translation company may require a test. For example, most ISO-certified companies follow elaborate QC procedures throughout the translation process, including the selection of freelancers.
- When you have many candidates it is faster when each test translates the same original, than if you have to shift gears every time, and look at a different translation of a different original. A well-designed test represents a considerable investment of time for the translation company or translation department. For example: the time spent selecting the texts to be translated, the time spent designing the test (choosing which parts of the text to translate, perhaps adding translation problems to see how they would be solved by the candidates, writing and reviewing the instructions for the test, sending out the tests), the time devoted to a first screening of all the tests received to see which could be dismissed out of hand, and then the time spent assessing the tests. Bear in mind that well-designed test is not assessed by a person only - at the software company I mentioned before, two translators assessed each test, but when the two evaluations differed, a third evaluator also took part.
These are the main reason a translation test may be more useful than sample translations. This, of course, applies only to tests that are well designed and well administered. Tests that are not well planned are a waste of time for all.
| | | | | Great point, Milos | Mar 14, 2009 |
Milos Prudek raises a very good point, one that has also struck me for many years. As some have mentioned, translators are not officially credentialed. And yet, many of us bring a lifetime of experience and a wealth of expertise to the job. So we are in a sort of gray area. I think if we want to be treated as professionals, we have to act as professionals. As Milos points out, no self-respecting professional would ever undertake a "free trial" to prove their worth. Such an indignity might be und... See more Milos Prudek raises a very good point, one that has also struck me for many years. As some have mentioned, translators are not officially credentialed. And yet, many of us bring a lifetime of experience and a wealth of expertise to the job. So we are in a sort of gray area. I think if we want to be treated as professionals, we have to act as professionals. As Milos points out, no self-respecting professional would ever undertake a "free trial" to prove their worth. Such an indignity might be understandable for a translator of limited experience. But for those of us with more than a decade under our belt, it's quite insulting to be asked to work for free. In my many years as a translator I have gone through phases of doing trials, refusing to do trials, asking to submit samples instead of trials.... you name it. I have also asked a few clients to submit trials to me by asking them to provide a sample of work they had previously received from a translator, edited and submitted to the end client. You'd be surprised how turning the tables on these jokers shows their true colors. At least here in the Tokyo market, I have found that clients asking for trials are not good leads for work (to say the least). I very much appreciated Viktoria Gimbe's idea of asking for payment for the trial, and then deducting it from the first job. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Gianni Pastore
Italy
Local time: 13:10
Member (2007)
English to Italian
| Over an hour for 350 words? | Mar 15, 2009 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Samuel Murray wrote:
My mistake. Make it half an hour. And draw the line at 350 words.
Still too short. I think a test of that size in an area you know very well can easily take over an hour... if you want to deliver a good test.
For a test in an area you are supposed to know very well and therefore needs virtually no research? Frankly, such speed doesn't ring the "hi-confi" bell in my ears
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