| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Can outsourcers really get away with cancelling urgent projects? Thread poster: Bryan Crumpler
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Desdemone (X)
Local time: 05:13
French to English
| You should.. | Jun 12, 2010 |
bill them for the portion you completed, and tell them if they don't pay you'll take legal action. Then take legal action. Then dump them.
| | | | Jan Willem van Dormolen (X) 
Netherlands
Local time: 10:13
English to Dutch
+ ...
| Any written confirmation should do | Jun 12, 2010 |
Bryan Crumpler wrote:
In the second instance there is written confirmation of agreement with the price and written confirmation of a go-ahead with the assignment.
So you have written confirmation, and that should suffice for any judge in any (not too corrupt) country.
Threaten them with legal action. Methinks you have a case.
[Bijgewerkt op 2010-06-12 07:56 GMT]
| | | | Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X)
Poland
Local time: 10:13
English to Polish
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| relevant law | Jun 12, 2010 |
I'm not an expert in the laws of your state Bryan but I can't really see the connection between consumer sales (especially home solicitation!) and B2B contract law.
Since you're asking, in continental Europe business contracts are typically subject to general civil law codes. In my country, most provisions of the Civil Code are only applied if the matter in question is not resolved in the contract itself. In this case, the buyer could withdraw from the contract as long as the work h... See more I'm not an expert in the laws of your state Bryan but I can't really see the connection between consumer sales (especially home solicitation!) and B2B contract law.
Since you're asking, in continental Europe business contracts are typically subject to general civil law codes. In my country, most provisions of the Civil Code are only applied if the matter in question is not resolved in the contract itself. In this case, the buyer could withdraw from the contract as long as the work has not been completed. However, they'd have to pay your fee less whatever you have saved on non-performance of the work — which in this case means, as everybody here is suggesting, paying for work performed. This is also the business custom.
[Edited at 2010-06-12 08:03 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Wow, what a bad luck! | Jun 12, 2010 |
When something like that happens to me, my clients always tell me something like: "Sorry, the job was cancelled, but we will pay you for what you have already done."
Apparently, this is the kind of bad clients who apply the formula of "we will pay the translator if..." (if we consider that the job was well done, if our direct client says it's ok, if our direct client pays us, when our direct client pays us [which can take up to several months], etc.). They don't realize all the wor... See more When something like that happens to me, my clients always tell me something like: "Sorry, the job was cancelled, but we will pay you for what you have already done."
Apparently, this is the kind of bad clients who apply the formula of "we will pay the translator if..." (if we consider that the job was well done, if our direct client says it's ok, if our direct client pays us, when our direct client pays us [which can take up to several months], etc.). They don't realize all the work and effort that has already been done. ▲ Collapse
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Bryan Crumpler
United States
Local time: 04:13
Dutch to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Nope... don't have it backwards. | Jun 12, 2010 |
mediamatrix wrote:
Bryan Crumpler wrote:
Samuel Murray wrote:
Bryan Crumpler wrote:
Here is what consumer laws in my state say for home-solicitation sales...
This is not relevant, because the out-sourcer isn't selling anything to you. In fact, he is buying from you.
It's me selling the translation to the client.
They, as the buyer, have a right to cancel - but not if it concerns a service that is marked urgent and work has already commenced on the project prior to notice of cancellation.
In most countries, 'home-solicitation' sales refers to the situation where, for example, someone comes knocking on your door, at home, unsolicited by you, the buyer, to sell you a tooth-brush, or fire insurance, or ... whatever.
I'm prepared to bet you didn't sell this translation service after knocking on your client's door - at his home, not his office - and winning him over with a glorious monologue about how marvellous your toothbrushes - ops, sorry: 'translations' - really are.
That kind of legislation won't help you. Standing up for your moral right to be paid for work done in good faith is what counts here - regardless of the legislation in your, or your client's, country.
MediaMatrix
I only provided that excerpt as an example of consumer sales law as it pertains to home solicitation sales.
I was asking if there was anything similar as it applies to services contracted in the EU.
What's with the selective reading?
| | | | Alex Eames
Local time: 09:13
English to Polish
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| You've lost the client either way, which is good in this case | Jun 12, 2010 |
Bryan,
I don't know about Spain, but I bet that some of the Spanish regulars would know.
I think Mediametrix is right. The issue here is the moral one. I also think legal action will be fairly pointless bearing in mind we're talking less than a day's worth of work (if I understand the original post correctly).
I think the leverage you have over them is simply that of tarnishing their reputation.
I would send them an invoice. If it's not paid by... See more Bryan,
I don't know about Spain, but I bet that some of the Spanish regulars would know.
I think Mediametrix is right. The issue here is the moral one. I also think legal action will be fairly pointless bearing in mind we're talking less than a day's worth of work (if I understand the original post correctly).
I think the leverage you have over them is simply that of tarnishing their reputation.
I would send them an invoice. If it's not paid by the due date, send them a reminder, then a warning about a blue board entry etc. Legal action will surely be overkill in this case (but maybe a letter from a local [to them] attorney might get a result, if a local colleague can help you out with a contact?)
I'm assuming you sent them the file to prove how much you had completed at the moment of cancellation?
Alex Eames
http://www.translatortips.com
helping translators do better business ▲ Collapse
| | | | Emma Goldsmith
Spain
Local time: 10:13
Member (2004)
Spanish to English
| Send the translation as is | Jun 12, 2010 |
I have often started translations here in Spain that have then been cancelled. The agency (not always the same one) suddenly emails me to tell me to stop immediately as the project's been cancelled. On their instructions I send the translation in as is (without checking it) and am paid for the number of words translated.
I've never had a problem so far working like this.
Presumably you have suggested this solution to your client, Bryan? I can't see that purchase order... See more I have often started translations here in Spain that have then been cancelled. The agency (not always the same one) suddenly emails me to tell me to stop immediately as the project's been cancelled. On their instructions I send the translation in as is (without checking it) and am paid for the number of words translated.
I've never had a problem so far working like this.
Presumably you have suggested this solution to your client, Bryan? I can't see that purchase orders make much difference here. Surely it's a matter of both parts being reasonable. If you get in a taxi and ask the driver to take you somewhere, and then half way there you change your plans and get out right where you are, both you and the taxi driver would think it reasonable for you to pay the fare that is due at that point. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Bryan Crumpler
United States
Local time: 04:13
Dutch to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | The day's worth was substantial | Jun 12, 2010 |
Alex & Malgorzata Eames wrote:
I also think legal action will be fairly pointless bearing in mind we're talking less than a day's worth of work (if I understand the original post correctly).
The amount agreed to be paid is substantial given the premium agreed to be paid for rush, overtime, and the complexity of the document. I won't give specific numbers, but it is 4 figures. Legal action (i.e. small claims court with domestication/transfer of judgment) is not out of the question.
At any rate, I have the information I need thanks to a few offline messages and have found a decent reference:
http://www.unidroit.org/english/principles/contracts/principles2004/blackletter2004-english.pdf
ARTICLE 7.3.6
(Restitution)
(1) On termination of the contract either party may claim restitution of whatever
it has supplied, provided that such party concurrently makes restitution of whatever it
has received. If restitution in kind is not possible or appropriate allowance should be
made in money whenever reasonable.
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Bryan Crumpler
United States
Local time: 04:13
Dutch to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Emma Goldsmith wrote:
I have often started translations here in Spain that have then been cancelled. The agency (not always the same one) suddenly emails me to tell me to stop immediately as the project's been cancelled. On their instructions I send the translation in as is (without checking it) and am paid for the number of words translated.
I've never had a problem so far working like this.
Presumably you have suggested this solution to your client, Bryan? I can't see that purchase orders make much difference here. Surely it's a matter of both parts being reasonable. If you get in a taxi and ask the driver to take you somewhere, and then half way there you change your plans and get out right where you are, both you and the taxi driver would think it reasonable for you to pay the fare that is due at that point.
This case was different.
They canceled the project so that they could send it to someone else. Presumably someone cheaper.
They are trying to justify their cancellation claim by reason of non-assurance that the job would be fulfilled: as in "We attempted to call & email you for status updates, but we could never get in touch with you."
This is where I am particularly angry because my phone shows no incoming calls during this alleged period they claimed they called. There are no missed calls, no voicemails, nothing of the sort. I asked for documentation of the calls to verify this.
As for the emails they sent... the timestamps show that they were sent at 3am and 6am my time. I would think any sensible business person dealing internationally would understand the concept of time zones, business hours, and basic things like the fact that most humans sleep at those hours.
When I informed them after cancellation that they should expect a bill for work completed within the coming days, this is when they became irrational.
I stated that I apologize for the inconvenience (i.e. being unreachable at 3am and 6am and being unable to respond to or pick up phone calls never made), but they could not continue to abuse my time and my services in this manner. It was the second time in a row that they had done this after the job and the rates were already agreed to and confirmed.
| | | | mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 06:13
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Pedantry ... | Jun 12, 2010 |
Bryan Crumpler wrote:
mediamatrix wrote:
Bryan Crumpler wrote:
Samuel Murray wrote:
Bryan Crumpler wrote:
Here is what consumer laws in my state say for home-solicitation sales...
This is not relevant, because the out-sourcer isn't selling anything to you. In fact, he is buying from you.
It's me selling the translation to the client.
They, as the buyer, have a right to cancel - but not if it concerns a service that is marked urgent and work has already commenced on the project prior to notice of cancellation.
In most countries, 'home-solicitation' sales refers to the situation where, for example, someone comes knocking on your door, at home, unsolicited by you, the buyer, to sell you a tooth-brush, or fire insurance, or ... whatever.
I'm prepared to bet you didn't sell this translation service after knocking on your client's door - at his home, not his office - and winning him over with a glorious monologue about how marvellous your toothbrushes - ops, sorry: 'translations' - really are.
That kind of legislation won't help you. Standing up for your moral right to be paid for work done in good faith is what counts here - regardless of the legislation in your, or your client's, country.
MediaMatrix
I only provided that excerpt as an example of consumer sales law as it pertains to home solicitation sales.
I was asking if there was anything similar as it applies to services contracted in the EU.
What's with the selective reading?
... is the very essence of professional translation.
If we can't read and write selectively (i.e. analytically, taking things in their proper context, rejecting the absurd and focusing on the relevant, etc. etc.) what hope do we have of ever delivering valid translations? Or, come to that, of making sensible business decisions when faced with the unethical behaviour of clients.
MediaMatrix
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