| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Client doesn't want to pay for translation Thread poster: Jennifer Benavides
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Hi...Any advice will be greatly appreciated. I am a freelancer in Spain and recently completed a very large translation (over 6 weeks of work) and the agency has informed me that the client was very unhappy with the style and fluidity of my work, therefore he was being forced to pay for a revision and would deduct this amount from my agreed payment. I subsequently was informed that the revision was going very slowly due to numerous serious errors and due to this the revision was more costly than... See more Hi...Any advice will be greatly appreciated. I am a freelancer in Spain and recently completed a very large translation (over 6 weeks of work) and the agency has informed me that the client was very unhappy with the style and fluidity of my work, therefore he was being forced to pay for a revision and would deduct this amount from my agreed payment. I subsequently was informed that the revision was going very slowly due to numerous serious errors and due to this the revision was more costly than imagined and I would subsequently not be paid.
Before beginning the job I agreed to a work order which included the contracted payment amount. I have consistently worked for this client for several years now and he knows my style and work method (which did not change for this job). After completing approximately one-quarter of the work I sent him this part of the translation (some 70 pages) and received no indication that there was any problem with style or fluidity. Is it really my responsibility to pay for a revision (isn't this a standard cost to be incurred by either the agency or the client, especially with a project of this magnitude-- almost 100,000 words).
I fully accept that any major errors should be deducted from my rate, but is it possible that after these months working in good faith I can legally be paid nothing? Thanks for any advice!
[Edited at 2010-07-04 09:55 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | First of all: request the corrected text | Jul 4, 2010 |
In your position, I would inform the customer that I will not accept any deduction before receiving the corrected text for my evaluation. They must prove that they did in fact correct the text and must show you what kind of corrections they made. Only then can you accept any discussion about how to compensate the end customer for any time spent correcting the text.
Once they have sent you the corrected text, tell us what happened and maybe your colleagues can come up with more sugge... See more In your position, I would inform the customer that I will not accept any deduction before receiving the corrected text for my evaluation. They must prove that they did in fact correct the text and must show you what kind of corrections they made. Only then can you accept any discussion about how to compensate the end customer for any time spent correcting the text.
Once they have sent you the corrected text, tell us what happened and maybe your colleagues can come up with more suggestions.
Good luck! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:50
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Unlike Tomás, I'd come down on these people like a ton of bricks. From the tone of your post you seem like a very measured, reasonable person. That's exactly how these people like it. But now I think you've been patient enough.
Since you've worked for this outsourcer for a long time with no complaints and suddenly they start behaving in this unpleasant way, my own thought would be that something has changed within that company and a new person is at the helm.
Or perhap... See more Unlike Tomás, I'd come down on these people like a ton of bricks. From the tone of your post you seem like a very measured, reasonable person. That's exactly how these people like it. But now I think you've been patient enough.
Since you've worked for this outsourcer for a long time with no complaints and suddenly they start behaving in this unpleasant way, my own thought would be that something has changed within that company and a new person is at the helm.
Or perhaps it's a new and over-zealous PM trying to demonstrate how good they are at maximising profits (by simply not paying their translators).
Step 1:
Who's the person at the top? I suggest you complain to them. I'm sure they wouldn't want to lose one of their long-term reliable translators.
Step 2:
If that doesn't go anywhere you should IMMEDiATELY post a negative Blue Board rating - but be careful how you word it so that they cannot reply demolishing your case against them. The best way is to be extremely succinct along the lines of "Totally negative experience with these people. Never work with them. For full details, message me".
They may then propose paying you. In exchange, they may ask you to agree to remove your negative post. Promise you'll do that after you've received payment in full. Wait until you've been paid in full and the money is safely in your account (not in PayPal or somewhere else where they might be able to block it).
Then don't remove your negative post. If anything, make it worse. That's the treatment people like that deserve.
Then never work for them again.
Step 3:
If the Blue Board option doesn't work, start asking loudly in here about what the legal steps are that you need to take to obtain payment. Agencies read these forums and the prospect of someone seriously on the verge of initiating credit recovery procedures is sometimes enough to spur them into action.
Good luck ! I hate to see an honest, hard-working colleague being treated so inconsiderately.
[Edited at 2010-07-04 10:27 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | gracias Tómas! | Jul 4, 2010 |
Lo haré.
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| Agency that does not want to pay | Jul 4, 2010 |
This is scam. Several agencies are doing the same actually and we must be careful. They argue the fact that the work is unsatisfactory for not paying the translator. This is unacceptable! You did do the work, you must be paid. If necessary contact a lawyer. These practices look like authorized slavery and we must stand up against it. I have myself been a victim of an agency, listed on proz. I think we must no longer trust but check on all existing sites the credibility of the agencies before ac... See more This is scam. Several agencies are doing the same actually and we must be careful. They argue the fact that the work is unsatisfactory for not paying the translator. This is unacceptable! You did do the work, you must be paid. If necessary contact a lawyer. These practices look like authorized slavery and we must stand up against it. I have myself been a victim of an agency, listed on proz. I think we must no longer trust but check on all existing sites the credibility of the agencies before accepting the job, and in parallel, develop our network of direct customers. Not easy but possible.
Natalia.
Jennifer Benavides wrote:
Hi...Any advice will be greatly appreciated. I am a freelancer in Spain and recently completed a very large translation (over 6 weeks of work) and the agency has informed me that the client was very unhappy with the style and fluidity of my work, therefore he was being forced to pay for a revision and would deduct this amount from my agreed payment. I subsequently was informed that the revision was going very slowly due to numerous serious errors and due to this the revision was more costly than imagined and I would subsequently not be paid.
Before beginning the job I agreed to a work order which included the contracted payment amount. I have consistently worked for this client for several years now and he knows my style and work method (which did not change for this job). After completing approximately one-quarter of the work I sent him this part of the translation (some 70 pages) and received no indication that there was any problem with style or fluidity. Is it really my responsibility to pay for a revision (isn't this a standard cost to be incurred by either the agency or the client, especially with a project of this magnitude-- almost 100,000 words).
I fully accept that any major errors should be deducted from my rate, but is it possible that after these months working in good faith I can legally be paid nothing? Thanks for any advice!
[Edited at 2010-07-04 09:55 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | outsourcer not wanting to pay | Jul 4, 2010 |
Hi and thanks to everyone who has offered advice!
The strange thing about this situation is that I have had a good relationship with this outsourcer for several years now and this is the first time that anything like this has happened...which made me very unsure and skeptical as to my response.
Am I correct in that the responsibility of the revision lies with the outsourcer or client, or should I be held accountable for the amount that is paid to this person to revise... See more Hi and thanks to everyone who has offered advice!
The strange thing about this situation is that I have had a good relationship with this outsourcer for several years now and this is the first time that anything like this has happened...which made me very unsure and skeptical as to my response.
Am I correct in that the responsibility of the revision lies with the outsourcer or client, or should I be held accountable for the amount that is paid to this person to revise my work. I know that it is normal to take a payment reduction for errors in a translation, but does anyone have any information on how this typically occurs or is it to be determined on an individual basis? I have never had to negotiate a payment in this way and am at a loss as to how to go about it. Thanks again. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:50
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Jennifer Benavides wrote:
Hi and thanks to everyone who has offered advice!
The strange thing about this situation is that I have had a good relationship with this outsourcer for several years now and this is the first time that anything like this has happened...which made me very unsure and skeptical as to my response.
Am I correct in that the responsibility of the revision lies with the outsourcer or client, or should I be held accountable for the amount that is paid to this person to revise my work. I know that it is normal to take a payment reduction for errors in a translation, but does anyone have any information on how this typically occurs or is it to be determined on an individual basis? I have never had to negotiate a payment in this way and am at a loss as to how to go about it. Thanks again.
I'd say the time for negotiation is over. I don't think anyone is revising your work. I don't think anyone ever was. I think you're being ripped off. Nataliailda is right.
[Edited at 2010-07-04 13:18 GMT]
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Tom,
The outsourcer told me that he would send me the chapters that have been revised showing the errors that have been corrected. I hadn't even considered the possibility that this wasn't really the case, but I have been translating for only about 5 years now and this is the first time that something like this has happened to me (it is also the biggest job I have ever taken on).
Assuming that it is really being revised, would I be accountable for the price of the revis... See more Tom,
The outsourcer told me that he would send me the chapters that have been revised showing the errors that have been corrected. I hadn't even considered the possibility that this wasn't really the case, but I have been translating for only about 5 years now and this is the first time that something like this has happened to me (it is also the biggest job I have ever taken on).
Assuming that it is really being revised, would I be accountable for the price of the revision? This seems absurd to me, since I cant even possibly know how much this really is?
Thanks for your time and knowledge! ▲ Collapse
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Vibeke Degn-P 
Norway
Local time: 10:50
Member (2010)
English to Norwegian
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| Split payment on large projects | Jul 4, 2010 |
As you already have lots of good tips on how to deal with this client, I would like to give a little advice about your next large client:
When a project runs over several weeks, make sure you agree with the agency/direct client that you want to be paid every week or every second week. When working on a project based on payment per tranlated word, it it easy to do a wordcount sunday evening and send an invoice for last weeks work. If you can get the client to pay within one week of ... See more As you already have lots of good tips on how to deal with this client, I would like to give a little advice about your next large client:
When a project runs over several weeks, make sure you agree with the agency/direct client that you want to be paid every week or every second week. When working on a project based on payment per tranlated word, it it easy to do a wordcount sunday evening and send an invoice for last weeks work. If you can get the client to pay within one week of recieving your invoice, you never loose more than a week or so worth of work if they suddenly decide not to pay.
There is also the option op part-payment before project even starts. When translating literature in Norway there is a standard contract most publishing houses use. It says: 1/3 to be paid when signing contract, 1/3 paid when translation has been delivered and 1/3 paid when book has been proofread and checked. Works perfectly! If footballplayers and bank managers can get sign-on-fees before they even lift a finger, why can't translators? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 10:50
French to German
+ ...
| Revision... or whatever it is called | Jul 4, 2010 |
Jennifer Benavides wrote:
Am I correct in that the responsibility of the revision lies with the outsourcer or client, or should I be held accountable for the amount that is paid to this person to revise my work. I know that it is normal to take a payment reduction for errors in a translation, but does anyone have any information on how this typically occurs or is it to be determined on an individual basis? I have never had to negotiate a payment in this way and am at a loss as to how to go about it. Thanks again.
The ideal situation is that the price for the revision should always been included in the quote submitted to the client by the agency.
Then of course, the agency must find a colleague willing and able to do the revision - and have the revision done!
What happens more and more often nowadays is that clients have some bilingual in-house employees (or the boss himself) to "revise" translations because the service offered by the agency is deemed to expensive.
Anyway, the client can do whatever they like with a translation, revise it, improworsen it, hang it in the toilets - as long as they have paid for it before!
I personally think that, one way or the other, the whole matter described here is rotten down to the bone.
PS: and yes, Vibeke is right - such jobs should be split in partial deliveries, linked to partial payments. Unfortunately, many agencies do not want to commit any cent of their poor cash-flow to pay for translations the client can possibly reject on "quality grounds". They therefore transfer the risks to the translators...
[Edited at 2010-07-04 14:38 GMT]
| | | | | thanks for the input everyone! | Jul 4, 2010 |
it has been greatly appreciated!
| | | | T F F
Italy
Local time: 10:50
English to Italian
| Agrees & Thoughts... | Jul 4, 2010 |
Agrees:
1) ...with Tomas, saying: Ask for the amended text!
2) ...with Vibeke, saying: Split large jobs in batches!
And, have them Revised / Checked timely: whatever the check process will be (employee of the agency / employee of the customer / trusted end client of the customer / another freelance, etc), state clearly to your direct counterpart (the agency in this case) that - on large jobs - complaints can be acceptable only if done ... See more Agrees:
1) ...with Tomas, saying: Ask for the amended text!
2) ...with Vibeke, saying: Split large jobs in batches!
And, have them Revised / Checked timely: whatever the check process will be (employee of the agency / employee of the customer / trusted end client of the customer / another freelance, etc), state clearly to your direct counterpart (the agency in this case) that - on large jobs - complaints can be acceptable only if done while the translation is going on...If I deliver a batch, it is because you must examine it and tell me timely, whether you want me to change something, otherwise I go on like that!
Thoughts:
1) ScoreThe fact that you have delivered a batch of 70 pages puts you in a pleasant condition: object to the counterpart that you have implicitly received their agree, and you couldn't change anything because of their silent consent – even if you wanted to!
2) The other point of view: What I see here is a long-term reliable translator working for an LSP with a brand new end-client, that is offering them a lot of money through a big assignement...In this case, things may easily turn bad if:
- The client has entrusted a not very skilled validator (you will see it examining the revised text you aregoing to receive!)
- The client is one of those worrying people- you know, the one who pick up the phone and shout...and...
- The PM does not understand the language / domain and is not exactly a… braveheart!
3) Fifth Amendment : DON'T say a words until you see the amended text: I’m sure you have accepted a job not beyond your experience, and therefore you may find only “normal” errors. Examine your performance and then offer a fair discount only if you honestly think it is due, otherwise explain why the red marks are not actual errors: this way you will recover your client’ trust and - what I wish you – your full payment as well!
4) Who has to pay the reviewer’ bill? As for the “Is it me having to pay for the review stage ?” Well, definitely not! IMMO, if a job – due to its scope, volume, domain, etc – does require a review, the PM must advise the client and then decline any liability for errors due to the lack of a proper revision step: if the PM fails to do that, it’s LSP liability! If the PM did it, it’s End-clients liability for having refused a required step of the process!
5) However, you are not James Bond! Obviously this doesn’t mean you have got a “Licence to kill”: you must actually tend to provide a faultless text…The much the editor’ “red pen” will do your work, the less you deserve a full payment
6) De gustibus non disputandum est. Style is not objectivable! Could I order a translation, get it and then refuse to pay, just saying “I don’t like it”? Not at all! I must pay! However, again, the translator has not a licence to kill: the more the rate is high, the more the client is right expecting a pleasant text…I use to provide short translation test in advance, so the client can listen at my “timbre” and decide whether I’m the right man for that task!
Good luck, Jennifer!
RR ▲ Collapse
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| All my support | Jul 4, 2010 |
There is not a lot I can add to all the good advice above. As already mentioned, having sent a good chunk of the translation before finishing is a strong argument in your favor. Why didn't they tell you to stop then and there?
I would disagree with the advice to show a lot of anger towards the customer, for the moment.
Your collection efforts should escalate bit by bit. You shouldn't bring out your big guns until you've tried the small ones.
My guess is o... See more There is not a lot I can add to all the good advice above. As already mentioned, having sent a good chunk of the translation before finishing is a strong argument in your favor. Why didn't they tell you to stop then and there?
I would disagree with the advice to show a lot of anger towards the customer, for the moment.
Your collection efforts should escalate bit by bit. You shouldn't bring out your big guns until you've tried the small ones.
My guess is once you receive your marked up translation you will find mostly stylistic changes, rather than a lot of severe errors.
After receiving your feedback, you might consider giving some sort of discount, if you feel they might have a point.
If you feel they don't have a point, you can start the escalation process: emails, phone calls, collection letters, more phone calls, all progressively more assertive. Try to get at least part of the payment ASAP.
Then you can consider hiring a lawyer to start with trying a few things. Or, get a professional collection agency that has a lot of experience with this sort of thing.
If all that doesn't work, you can send the boys 'round (joking!) ▲ Collapse
| | | | Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:50
French to English
+ ...
| Revision still ongoing? | Jul 4, 2010 |
It would be highly irregular for you not to be paid anything at all unless the translation is blatantly unfit for purpose. Beyond that, there are some grey areas that depend a little on what you had agreed in the first place.
I would suggest as the first course of action that you ask to see the actual corrections so far. As a translator, you have a general duty to deliver a text that is well-written, sounds like it is a document originally written in the target language. and which r... See more It would be highly irregular for you not to be paid anything at all unless the translation is blatantly unfit for purpose. Beyond that, there are some grey areas that depend a little on what you had agreed in the first place.
I would suggest as the first course of action that you ask to see the actual corrections so far. As a translator, you have a general duty to deliver a text that is well-written, sounds like it is a document originally written in the target language. and which reflects the contents of the original text. And I would also consider that you have a duty to go to "reasonable" effort to produce a text that is satisfactory to the particular client in question-- by which I mean among other things that you should make a reasonable effort to build into the translation particular preferences which the client has informed you about. But at the same time, you can't be telepathic.
So you really need to see on what grounds the client is claiming that you're not fulfilling your duties-- i.e. you need to see the actual corrections. If the issue is essentially one of stylistic preferences, then it's reasonable that you haven't taken those into account if you weren't informed about them in advance. But on the other hand, you do have a duty to produce a fundamentally well-written piece of text.
If the revision is still ongoing, then what surprises me a little is that the client hasn't asked *you* to revise the rest of the text in the first instance, on the basis of the first part that has already been revised. (Sometimes a reason for this can be time-- but it sounds as though the client has the luxury of spending extra time in this case.) If on reflection there are parts of the translation that do need some serious revision, could that be a way forward? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Paula Borges
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:50
Member (2010)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
| Neil/ New skill | Jul 5, 2010 |
Lately it seems more and more agencies are demanding discounts based on the translator's lack of telepathic skills.
Maybe we need some training, because I can't sense when there are several translators working in the same project as me unless I am told, and I'm not being able to "pick up" their style and terminology. When the ultra-professional PM delivers the project without any kind of checking or editing, they expect all the translators involved to gladly agree not to be paid.... See more Lately it seems more and more agencies are demanding discounts based on the translator's lack of telepathic skills.
Maybe we need some training, because I can't sense when there are several translators working in the same project as me unless I am told, and I'm not being able to "pick up" their style and terminology. When the ultra-professional PM delivers the project without any kind of checking or editing, they expect all the translators involved to gladly agree not to be paid.
In my opinion, certain agencies have a simple M.O.: if my client doesn't pay me, I won't pay the translator. If my client uses the "complaints for discounts" strategy, I'll do the same. Frustrating. Sorry for the rant, but I've been noticing that more and more agencies like to undermine, unjustly criticise, and keep the translator insecure and under constant threat in order to justify tighter deadlines, discounts, late payments, and keep them from ever changing their rates.
Do not fall for that. They have requested your services, so no matter what happens they have to pay for it. If not, they will have to prove why they shouldn't. I suggest you request the final version (my guess is that they won't send it to you), tell them you can split the costs of hiring an independent professional to analyse your work and that you need a report by them explaining why they refuse to pay you so you can show it to your legal representative. It worked for me, they e-mailed me back saying they "reconsidered the situation and it was everyone's fault so they've decided it'd be unfair not to pay me". Yeah, right. ▲ Collapse
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