Probable bankruptcy... Thread poster: Therrien
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Therrien 
Canada
Local time: 23:44
English to French
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I worked 2 weeks on a project for a new client.
I was on the last leg of the project where the neat automated web page I was working from didn't accept my log-on anymore.
Called my client. Phone line went to an operator and went dud.
Called another number they had given me. Some guy said they did a court settlement and they're not able to communicate or do business with anyone until the 16th of May 2011 but promptly said that all monies owed from recent b... See more I worked 2 weeks on a project for a new client.
I was on the last leg of the project where the neat automated web page I was working from didn't accept my log-on anymore.
Called my client. Phone line went to an operator and went dud.
Called another number they had given me. Some guy said they did a court settlement and they're not able to communicate or do business with anyone until the 16th of May 2011 but promptly said that all monies owed from recent business will be "compensated."
I interrupted his patterned speech by saying that I'm CURRENTLY working and can't log-on, should I send my invoice for what's done and consider the project done?
"Yes, yes, of course. Send the invoice. We'll get in touch the 16th of May." He hung up.
Well, I did send them the invoice in a flash, for sake of having a paper trail.
Their corp website is down, their phone lines disconnected from their offices and sent to a very inquiring receptionist.
I contacted the original client for which the translation is intended. A big international firm. I went all the way up the org board from one phone referral to the next to find whomever requested the translation contract to that agency in the first place.
Left a message to some international VP.
My plan is to appeal to the end client's good sense to ensure that my interests are covered by simply cutting my share of the pie from the payment owed and send it over to me.
I don't know if its legal, but little translator-me with a few thousands owed will certainly fall in the cracks of a bankruptcy, my invoice was sent after they ceased business!
Anyone had any similar situation? How did you handle it?
[Edited at 2011-04-08 19:44 GMT]
[Edited at 2011-04-08 22:40 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jean Lachaud
United States
Local time: 01:44
English to French
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| a business risk | Apr 8, 2011 |
Bankruptcy is one risk when doing business, as all of us freelancers do.
Usually, common debtors (businesses with outstanding invoices, ie. us) come last in the priority list of payees.
If you are owed a substantial amount of money, it may be worth to retain a lawyer. Maybe.
I won't go into copyright issues, but I would check that, until I have been paid, I retain ownership of my translation.
One theoretical way of avoiding that sort of situati... See more Bankruptcy is one risk when doing business, as all of us freelancers do.
Usually, common debtors (businesses with outstanding invoices, ie. us) come last in the priority list of payees.
If you are owed a substantial amount of money, it may be worth to retain a lawyer. Maybe.
I won't go into copyright issues, but I would check that, until I have been paid, I retain ownership of my translation.
One theoretical way of avoiding that sort of situation is to require intermediate payments for large projects. But we all know that, in practice, it is rarely possible. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Andrea Melletat
Germany
Local time: 07:44
Member (2006)
English to German
+ ...
| Little chance | Apr 8, 2011 |
No idea which legal system you have to deal with but here in Germany the insolvency act would not allow a direct payment to you by the initial outsourcer.
Little chance that the client would still be in need of the translation and would hire you as your are already knee deep into the translation work that they need to be done...
But partial payment to you is no idea which would even be worth mentioning...
| | | | Kirsten Bodart
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:44
Dutch to English
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| Well, it depends... | Apr 8, 2011 |
I think, firstly, it depends what debts the firm has. If it was only renting and did not have a huge mortgage which the bank will demand first, you could be in luck.
Normally, how it works is that the party with the largest debt gets paid first, and so on, down to the lowest. The agency you worked for is likely to have had many more smaller jobs than this big thing you did or are doing.
However, I don't think you could actually pass them by right now, to be honest. In ... See more I think, firstly, it depends what debts the firm has. If it was only renting and did not have a huge mortgage which the bank will demand first, you could be in luck.
Normally, how it works is that the party with the largest debt gets paid first, and so on, down to the lowest. The agency you worked for is likely to have had many more smaller jobs than this big thing you did or are doing.
However, I don't think you could actually pass them by right now, to be honest. In the end, the original client still possibly has a long-term contract or a short term one (only that job) with your agency. Technically, if you were able to pass your agency by now, how would that be when they were not bankrupt? You would be able to take the job and then just go to the original client and work for a lower price as you are cutting out the middle man. Thus the agency would always be at risk of being passed by. That is not really fair, is it. They would not take that risk, though. I think the original client really can't do anything else but pay the agency/curator and then, hopefully, you will be one of the first in the row. Otherwise, you get nothing.
On the other hand, if the contract clearly stipulates that the client pays when he has received the translation, you could make an officious agreement with the client and 'refuse' to deliver and then the client can refuse payment. Whereupon, you make an official agreement with the client and let him pay another rate or the same, what you wish. But the refusal to pay from the client should definitely be confirmed by him to the agency or its curators, because otherwise, in all probability, they will end up paying twice.
I don't think the agency or its curators could force you to deliver anyway, as there is effectively no longer an agency. Therefore, there is really no-one to deliver to. However, maybe they find someone to take over the business (that is usually the first task of a curator) and then you will have to deliver and be paid as if nothing has happened.
Sad for the original client, though, because he will have to wait a bit longer.
Although I would say, definitely do not put anything on paper now with the original client, because if the curator or a maybe new agency in the original agency's place wants, it could probably sue you for a contract you may have and which clearly says that you have to return the job to them. Of course, that does not keep you from orally agreeing on something, but I would not write anything, not in letter and not in e-mail.
Does this make sense? ▲ Collapse
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Therrien
Canada
Local time: 23:44
English to French
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TOPIC STARTER
Kirsten Bodart wrote:
On the other hand, if the contract clearly stipulates that the client pays when he has received the translation, you could make an officious agreement with the client and 'refuse' to deliver and then the client can refuse payment. Whereupon, you make an official agreement with the client and let him pay another rate or the same, what you wish. But the refusal to pay from the client should definitely be confirmed by him to the agency or its curators, because otherwise, in all probability, they will end up paying twice.
Unfortunately, Kirsten. I was working on a portal which required me to translate each paragraphs and save them into the system as I continued.
It was the end client's site. I fed the translation through paragraph by paragraph. I don't even have a copy of it.
Durn it.
[Edited at 2011-04-08 23:12 GMT]
| | | | | Too bad for you | Apr 9, 2011 |
Therrien wrote:
It was the end client's site. I fed the translation through paragraph by paragraph. I don't even have a copy of it.
Durn it.
You've reminded me why to date I have refused to work on clients' translation portals. As it stands, I think you are screwed. Talk to a lawyer first thing in the morning and see what s/he says, but you might have to write this off as a loss.
| | | | | A court settlement that stops their production? | Apr 9, 2011 |
(I am not a lawyer, so the following is just a summary of what I thought when I read your posting and the other comments.)
Sounds fishy to me. As Andrea pointed out, if a court administrator is managing the debt of the company, chances are that you will not get your money or will get your money when all the rest of debt has been settled. In a bankruptcy situation, you would never be paid by the company without the administrator's supervision and approval.
Now, don't you... See more (I am not a lawyer, so the following is just a summary of what I thought when I read your posting and the other comments.)
Sounds fishy to me. As Andrea pointed out, if a court administrator is managing the debt of the company, chances are that you will not get your money or will get your money when all the rest of debt has been settled. In a bankruptcy situation, you would never be paid by the company without the administrator's supervision and approval.
Now, don't you think it is a bit funny that a company would cease their operations because they filed for bankruptcy? Sounds plain fishy to me, to be honest. A court administrator would try to protect the company's business-as-usual operations so that there was income to be able to sustain the firm.
Also, it is very very fishy that they simply closed down their website and don't answer the phone.
Personally in this kind of situation my first thought is that they have been sued by someone and are trying to hide in order to protect the assets they may have.
I sympathise with your situation, and hope that you get paid your money, but it does not look very likely to be honest. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It may be legal, it is not ethical | Apr 9, 2011 |
Therrien wrote:
My plan is to appeal to the end client's good sense to ensure that my interests are covered by simply cutting my share of the pie from the payment owed and send it over to me.
I don't know if its legal, but little translator-me with a few thousands owed will certainly fall in the cracks of a bankruptcy, my invoice was sent after they ceased business!
Unfortunately I think this was not a very ethical approach. Your dealings and operations are with the translation agency, and if you have signed an NDA with the agency and read it through again, you will find all kinds of clauses prohibiting you from doing what you did.
The end customer has no relation to you and cannot pay you for work they have not asked you do to. They will simply choose another company and will not pay your customer. Most probably, you will not be paid either.
Take it as the manifestation of the risks involved in being an independent professional. Could happen to anyone. Personally I would scrap the matter completely, forget about it, and go on with my life.
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Kirsten Bodart
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:44
Dutch to English
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| Does not sound too fishy... | Apr 9, 2011 |
Protecting assets or not, it is not really that uncommon to stop activities for a short while before a court settlement which determines what course is to be taken. If anything, their quarters, computers and accounts may have been seized because of a lender who didn't get his money. As it would be totally impossible for them to actually do business, they could have chosen to stop activities altogether, also to save money on personnel costs for example (paying them for sitting there is not an op... See more Protecting assets or not, it is not really that uncommon to stop activities for a short while before a court settlement which determines what course is to be taken. If anything, their quarters, computers and accounts may have been seized because of a lender who didn't get his money. As it would be totally impossible for them to actually do business, they could have chosen to stop activities altogether, also to save money on personnel costs for example (paying them for sitting there is not an option). Also, if they had to vacate their premises because they did not pay their lease, there would be no open phone line at all anyway.
In that case, if a curator is required and the business can possibly be saved, the curator will open anew after their premises, computers etc have been released and will then contact you.
@Therrien:
Was it an ongoing project or was it almost finished? If it is still ongoing you may save some of your money, if the client paid your agency for the work you have done already, and be employed by themselves to do their project, or you may ask them to contact another company through which you can be employed. That will then heavily depend on the new agency, but you could be in luck. At any rate, the client is now also up the creek as he has suddenly no translation. They may do something for you if you put it the right way.
Otherwise, I am afraid, you have been working for free...
If the client had not yet paid the agency, though, then you could make an agreement, but the question is what will result from the 16th of May. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It's exactly what I would have done. | Apr 9, 2011 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Unfortunately I think this was not a very ethical approach.
I take the liberty do disagree and I would have done just the same (though I probably wouldn't have bothered an international VP).
... and if you have signed an NDA with the agency and read it through again, you will find all kinds of clauses prohibiting you from doing what you did.
The topic starter did not mention to have signed this and even if he did I fail to see why this should be an NDA issue. You are probably referring to a 'non competition clause' he may or may not have signed.
This is of course something that deserves to be highly respected. However, in this case the agency is about to cease to exist, so it's a case of sauve qui peut.
Let's face it ... since phone lines and website are already down ... this bancruptcy is the chapter 7 kind rather than chapter 11 ... after all they are not a bank or a Boston car maker.... but of course hope dies last.
The end customer has no relation to you and cannot pay you for work they have not asked you do to.
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They will simply choose another company.
They need not pay. That doesn't mean they can or must not. I would at least try to reach an agreement, as slim as the chance may be After all they received the work. You can of course play the copyright card, but that should only be the last straw. Good if you have something else to put in the balance, the quality of your work for instance. Since they need to find another company for future translations anyway they might as well choose me. I don't think the topic starter is a fool for trying.
Personally I would scrap the matter completely, forget about it, and go on with my life.
So two weeks' income does't matter that much to you? Lucky you!
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 06:44
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| It's now 28th May | May 28, 2011 |
Therrien wrote:
Some guy said they did a court settlement and they're not able to communicate or do business with anyone until the 16th of May 2011 but promptly said that all monies owed from recent business will be "compensated."
I once had dealings with a company that went into receivership, and they had a "blackout" time for a while while the receiver was reviewing everything. Then there was a period of trading under the receiver, where I was absolutely guaranteed payment. Still, when the company was declared solvent, I declined to work for them again - I presumably wasn't the only one as they went under soon after.
Did things turn out OK on 16th May for you? What is the situation now?
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