| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Failure of the industry Thread poster: Will Kelly
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Will Kelly
United Kingdom
Dutch to English
TOPIC STARTER | But that would only explain trends in the past 5 years | Nov 22, 2012 |
Wouldn't you say?
| | | | | IMO the industry seems to be doing well | Nov 22, 2012 |
In the last few years I was able to keep my rates and even continuously raise them by accepting new clients that pay higher rates and I have more than doubled my productivity. No reason to complain about the industry. Interesting enough, even some of the very big agencies that are known to put pressure on the rates wherever possible contacted me in the last 3 months and accepted my rates (considerably higher than the rates mentioned here) without even discussing them.
I am a strong ... See more In the last few years I was able to keep my rates and even continuously raise them by accepting new clients that pay higher rates and I have more than doubled my productivity. No reason to complain about the industry. Interesting enough, even some of the very big agencies that are known to put pressure on the rates wherever possible contacted me in the last 3 months and accepted my rates (considerably higher than the rates mentioned here) without even discussing them.
I am a strong supporter of "specialization" to justify higher rates. And I am also a strong supporter of using the marketing tools that are available to us.
Will, when I look at your profile, I get the impression that it could be improved to increase your chances convincing an outsourcer to give you a job. It also seems that you are not contributing a lot to Kudoz, which would have a marked effect on your position in the Proz ranking that is presented to people looking for freelancers.
Good old William made a nice statement "Nothing will come of nothing". There are tons of translators actively marketing their services and they are the ones that are visible to potential customers.
The only trend I see is that you need to work to keep or to improve your status in this industry. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Will Kelly
United Kingdom
Dutch to English
TOPIC STARTER | Well, thanks for the advice but... | Nov 22, 2012 |
...the reason I don't work on my profile is that I'm always fully booked.
I don't want this to turn into a 'look at me, I'm doing well' show. This is supposed to be about the industry as a whole. If an individual translator has managed to increase his/her rates in recent years, that could be down to the fact that he/she was underpriced in the first place. What matters for the purposes of this discussion is purely whether or not industry rates as a whole have risen in the mid to long... See more ...the reason I don't work on my profile is that I'm always fully booked.
I don't want this to turn into a 'look at me, I'm doing well' show. This is supposed to be about the industry as a whole. If an individual translator has managed to increase his/her rates in recent years, that could be down to the fact that he/she was underpriced in the first place. What matters for the purposes of this discussion is purely whether or not industry rates as a whole have risen in the mid to long term. ▲ Collapse
| | | | John Fossey 
Canada
Local time: 22:26
Member (2008)
French to English
+ ...
| Crisis cleared out the industry to some extent | Nov 22, 2012 |
Will Kelly wrote:
What matters for the purposes of this discussion is purely whether or not industry rates as a whole have risen in the mid to long term.
From my observation I think rates have increased. A lot of "bottom-feeders" seemed to vanish after the 2008 financial crisis, leaving higher paying, better managed buyers in the market.
However, I have never worked for the "bottom feeders", so they never constituted a proportion of my clientele, just that I notice that some such names are no longer around.
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Mark Cole
Local time: 03:26
Polish to English
+ ...
| It's a personal decision at the end of the day | Nov 22, 2012 |
Since the mid 1990s my rates have gone up by about 30%, but like many translators, I've been wary of increasing my rates since 2008 and all that...
However, whenever an agency sends me an e-mail demanding that I reduce my rates (because the market's getting competitive, because they need to reduce their rates to get me jobs and all the other excuses), I do make a point of sending them a list of increased rates and give them similar excuses (increasing overheads, the cost of electricity, fo... See more Since the mid 1990s my rates have gone up by about 30%, but like many translators, I've been wary of increasing my rates since 2008 and all that...
However, whenever an agency sends me an e-mail demanding that I reduce my rates (because the market's getting competitive, because they need to reduce their rates to get me jobs and all the other excuses), I do make a point of sending them a list of increased rates and give them similar excuses (increasing overheads, the cost of electricity, food, heating, etc. etc.)
Mark ▲ Collapse
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 04:26
Italian to English
In memoriam | Market shifts | Nov 22, 2012 |
Will Kelly wrote:
This is supposed to be about the industry as a whole.
The shape of the market has changed with the recession.
At the top end, there is too much work chasing too few competent specialist translators, which tends to drive rates up. Further south, too many generalist translators vie against each other - and against virtually cost-free MT in many cases - for a vast number of jobs where quality comes a poor second to price, forcing rates down.
What is missing with respect to a few years ago is the "squeezed middle" of the market. Round about 2008-9, many mid-range outsourcers were forced by shrinking turnovers and the like to sell more aggressively on either quality or price instead of coasting along on what had previously been fairly lively markets of their own. Depending on their choice of strategy, they moved from the middle of the market to the top or bottom.
FWIW.
| | | | | Market shifts II | Nov 22, 2012 |
As Siegfried mentioned, I have been able to raise rates slowly by quoting new rates to (potential) new clients.
That said, I find that many agencies seem to be in shock at those rates, despite avowals from colleagues that they charge even more than I do, and I probably only hook 1 out of 10 or even 1 out of every 20 potential jobs with new clients - and not everyone becomes a repeat customer.
I've even had agency referrals through colleagues I know charge the same or m... See more As Siegfried mentioned, I have been able to raise rates slowly by quoting new rates to (potential) new clients.
That said, I find that many agencies seem to be in shock at those rates, despite avowals from colleagues that they charge even more than I do, and I probably only hook 1 out of 10 or even 1 out of every 20 potential jobs with new clients - and not everyone becomes a repeat customer.
I've even had agency referrals through colleagues I know charge the same or more than I do - only to be told by the agency that my quoted rate is too high (in some cases, much too high).
Most of my colleagues that charge higher rates than I do work for direct clients (I love getting work outsourced from them, the pay is just great!). However, when questioned as to how they found these clients, there is usually some story about having some kind of previous relationship with the company, or being referred at some point in time.
Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single one of those stories involving the translator actively marketing his/her services to the client.
The implication (at least in my language pair) is that no one seems to be getting these lucrative clients/projects through their own marketing efforts - only through coincidence or connections - and that's a bit scary.
I would say on the whole that agency rates in my pair have been stagnant or in some cases falling. There are a lot of people out there claiming to be an "agency", when they really only offer rudimentary services and little added value - those are the ones participating in the "price wars" - and I believe they are legion.
There are still agencies out there that pay good rates for good quality (or as Giles says, specialists) - they are harder to find and it often seems that the translators they already work with are perfectly sufficient for their needs.
From my little (tiny) corner of the world, I couldn't give an accurate picture of what's going on in the "industry", but from the difficulty I've had with getting my rates accepted, and the drop in work from agencies who have told me in the past that my rates are "at the high end", I would hazard a guess that there IS a trend out there, and at the moment it's not really in our favor. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 04:26
Italian to English
In memoriam | Fight your corner | Nov 22, 2012 |
Janet Rubin wrote:
Most of my colleagues that charge higher rates than I do work for direct clients (I love getting work outsourced from them, the pay is just great!).
Why do you work for agencies, then?
However, when questioned as to how they found these clients, there is usually some story about having some kind of previous relationship with the company, or being referred at some point in time.
Or the direct client having seen your published work somewhere, or any number of other circumstances.
The implication (at least in my language pair) is that no one seems to be getting these lucrative clients/projects through their own marketing efforts - only through coincidence or connections - and that's a bit scary.
But it's not true.
Most sectors are fairly small ponds. Clients on the lookout for quality spot any new fish swimming around pretty quickly.
There are still agencies out there that pay good rates for good quality (or as Giles says, specialists) - they are harder to find and it often seems that the translators they already work with are perfectly sufficient for their needs.
Quality is not the same thing as specialisation. You have to deliver quality in sectors that you have identified as lucrative to carve out a niche for yourself.
From my little (tiny) corner of the world, I couldn't give an accurate picture of what's going on in the "industry", but from the difficulty I've had with getting my rates accepted, and the drop in work from agencies who have told me in the past that my rates are "at the high end", I would hazard a guess that there IS a trend out there, and at the moment it's not really in our favor.
You're right to put "industry" in inverted commas. Translation is a subsector of many very different sectors of commercial life. But if your rates are "at the high end", surely what you need to do is convince customers that you can deliver enough added value to justify your rate.
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| Haven't thrown in the towel | Nov 22, 2012 |
Giles Watson wrote:
Why do you work for agencies, then?
Because they give me work. I work with the good ones. I throw the others away. Also, see above about difficulty finding work with end clients.
Or the direct client having seen your published work somewhere, or any number of other circumstances.
Work published? Your work must be interesting, because all mine has pretty much been anonymous, and I'm also pretty sure that the many confidentiality agreements I've signed would complicate attempts to publicize...
Janet wrote:
The implication (at least in my language pair) is that no one seems to be getting these lucrative clients/projects through their own marketing efforts - only through coincidence or connections - and that's a bit scary.
But it's not true.
Most sectors are fairly small ponds. Clients on the lookout for quality spot any new fish swimming around pretty quickly.
It may not be true - for you. I think either way it's a generalization. None of us has all the data, but this topic comes up with a lot of colleagues, and I can only pass on the anecdotal evidence I have collected. As someone else can pass on the anecdotal evidence they have collected.
Can't help but wonder about these clients on the lookout for quality. Do you mean direct clients? Because in my experience, price seems to come up lately a lot more than quality....
Janet wrote:
There are still agencies out there that pay good rates for good quality (or as Giles says, specialists) -
Quality is not the same thing as specialisation.
I didn't say it was, I said "or" - I meant this to be two different alternatives.
But if your rates are "at the high end", surely what you need to do is convince customers that you can deliver enough added value to justify your rate.
You send them your CV. You send them your profile. You have a $10k website built to show you mean business. You tell them about your certification, your past experience, similar projects, your research methodology, your stringent review procedures, your dedication to deadlines. You offer different levels of service, you offer to provide ready-for-print translations in collaboration with fellow translators. You can tell them anything you want. Mostly what happens next (again, in my experience) is the other side saying that they just don't have the budget for your price and can you possibly come down?
My qualifications aren't called into question, neither is the "added value" or the quality. I'm just saying, this has been my experience (with direct clients, too). It's limited - it's only one person's experience, after all. But I've been at this for over a decade, and I can say that since I've been gradually raising rates to keep up with the cost of living, I've seen this kind of haggling (or outright rejection) over price far more often than I used to. And clients from all walks (agencies, direct clients, different size organizations) often seem to want the same work done for rates that were being charged 10 years ago.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 11:26
Chinese to English
| Similar experience to Janet | Nov 23, 2012 |
I've had a couple of direct clients who paid OK - though not much more than I get from agencies, I think I should be able to do better - and they have all come from referrals.
On the agencies and quality issue, you've got to think about what agencies are set up to do. They are built to add a bit of value, to do what's necessary to turn an average translator's work into a high quality finished product. They have to be ready to do that, because much as we'd all like to believe that we... See more I've had a couple of direct clients who paid OK - though not much more than I get from agencies, I think I should be able to do better - and they have all come from referrals.
On the agencies and quality issue, you've got to think about what agencies are set up to do. They are built to add a bit of value, to do what's necessary to turn an average translator's work into a high quality finished product. They have to be ready to do that, because much as we'd all like to believe that we're top notch, the truth of the matter - by definition - is that most of us are average.
So if you offer a service that goes well beyond average to an agency, their response is often, what's the point? We've invested our time and money setting up systems that work with USD 0.10 translators. Who knows, you might be a translator worth USD 0.15, but that's not really what we're set up for. We'd rather have that 5 cents for ourselves, thanks. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | A note on the "global" quality of the "industry" | Nov 23, 2012 |
I started out life in the US, later lived in Germany (for several years), and now live in Australia.
I have had (supposedly good) clients referred to me by colleagues, only to be told that my quote couldn't be accepted because they always pay translators outside of Europe in a particular currency and/or at a particular (low) exchange rate - this despite the fact that I maintain bank accounts in Germany and bill all my European clients in euros*.
In other words, they tri... See more I started out life in the US, later lived in Germany (for several years), and now live in Australia.
I have had (supposedly good) clients referred to me by colleagues, only to be told that my quote couldn't be accepted because they always pay translators outside of Europe in a particular currency and/or at a particular (low) exchange rate - this despite the fact that I maintain bank accounts in Germany and bill all my European clients in euros*.
In other words, they tried to use the fact that I live overseas - never mind the fact that my cost of living is actually higher here - as an excuse to bilk me.
Maybe this kind of thing is standard operating procedure in the world of business where margin/profit is everything. It just seems to me this kind of thing has been accelerating. Or maybe I'm just sensitive after feeling horribly insulted.
- - - -
*Strangely enough, I have not been able to push through the 40% increase in prices that would reflect the change in the EUR:AUD exchange rate. /sarcasm ▲ Collapse
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 04:26
Italian to English
In memoriam | Value is in the eye of the beholder | Nov 23, 2012 |
Janet Rubin wrote:
But if your rates are "at the high end", surely what you need to do is convince customers that you can deliver enough added value to justify your rate.
You send them your CV. You send them your profile. You have a $10k website built to show you mean business. You tell them about your certification, your past experience, similar projects, your research methodology, your stringent review procedures, your dedication to deadlines. You offer different levels of service, you offer to provide ready-for-print translations in collaboration with fellow translators. You can tell them anything you want. Mostly what happens next (again, in my experience) is the other side saying that they just don't have the budget for your price and can you possibly come down?
My qualifications aren't called into question, neither is the "added value" or the quality.
Your service obviously has plenty of value but what we see as value may not be the customer's perception, or at least not all of it. In any case, I imagine there are other translators who can offer a superficially similar service.
The question to ask is what unique customer-perceived value am I adding, or could I add?
It can help to ask existing or prospective customers in person, for example at trade fairs. This is not always possible of course yet with such a solid base, there must be other things you could be doing that the punters would happily fork out for.
Most customers put cost first most of the time. The trick is to catch them when they need quality.
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| Actual correspondence (from an agency) | Nov 23, 2012 |
We perfectly understand your position, Janet. We also find ourselves under increasing pressure to reduce our margins, with clients expecting more for less and with increasingly tough competition ready to pick up any business we turn down or any customers we do not completely satisfy. Of course, we would be delighted to continue working with you on future projects, but with such a significant rate increase we are afraid we will not be able to offer you the same number of projects.
Maybe we could find an alternative solution, for instance, would you like me to promote your services among our Project Managers, so that they send you a higher amount of job offers? We would love to establish a more regular collaboration with you in the long term.
Please let me know what you think and thanks, Janet.
Oh, I let them know what I thought alright!
For anyone who wants a laugh (probably at me for being so verbose):
Thank you for your letter of concern.
There has been no proposal of a "significant rate increase", as you imply.
Rather, as I stated in my mail to [the project manager], my standard rate has not been at the level listed in your computers for several years. It has been increasing steadily for the last decade (as most salaries and wages do, especially when workers become more skilled), and [your company] has simply failed to make the corresponding changes.
As a matter of fact, when I first started working with [your company] somewhere around a decade ago, I was paid around EUR 0.08 per target word of text (back then, this was roughly equivalent to or just a bit higher than the same in USD). That was my starting rate with relatively little experience in translating. Now I often receive "job offers" from [your company] for payment at USD 0.06 and USD 0.07. Very odd, isn't it?
How you place your projects is your company's decision. I don't know if you can tell from any particular computer records, but I have not been working for [your company] much in the last couple of years, and your company's policy concerning rates (and perceived lower quality) is almost entirely at fault.
I translate in the pair German>English, and I specialize in legal, financial, insurance, and marketing texts. I command very good rates from my European clients - often much higher than [your company] is willing to pay.
Therefore to imply that the so-called "pressure" you mention is a simple development in response to clients is rather disingenuous - it is also (and considerably) due to large companies like yours consistently offering clients bargain-basement prices for projects that actually require much more time and expertise than your salespeople know or apparently care about.
Every one of my colleagues is aware of this, and your company has lost much in terms of respect in the eyes of my colleagues. I have seen PM eMail requests for quality reviews (customer complaints) shoot up over the last few years since the prices have been falling - is it any wonder?
So again, thank you for your concern, but I do not wish to have "a more regular collaboration" with a client that wishes to pay me the same or less than what I earned when I first started out in my career over a decade ago.
As always, please do feel free to contact me when decent projects come along for decent rates, I am positive I will be able to supply the expertise and skills needed.
Kind regards,
| | | | Will Kelly
United Kingdom
Dutch to English
TOPIC STARTER | Quality should be the primary added value | Nov 23, 2012 |
What an agency or end customer want is not to have to come back to you with questions and corrections. Sometimes agencies don't mind paying an extra cent or two per word, particularly in the case of major end clients who could or do provide long-term business, because they know they're going to make a profit in the long run and quality control becomes an important part of keeping that major end client's business.
I would say a lot of the end clients for whom I work via agencies are ... See more What an agency or end customer want is not to have to come back to you with questions and corrections. Sometimes agencies don't mind paying an extra cent or two per word, particularly in the case of major end clients who could or do provide long-term business, because they know they're going to make a profit in the long run and quality control becomes an important part of keeping that major end client's business.
I would say a lot of the end clients for whom I work via agencies are of this ilk - major players providing repeat business. The jobs I miss out on are ones where the agencies say: "We can get good translators for €0.08/word for these jobs." In other words, quality is my added value, but top quality doesn't always come first for the agencies; sometimes 'good' is enough. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Will Kelly
United Kingdom
Dutch to English
TOPIC STARTER | Further to that... | Nov 26, 2012 |
If 'added value' is taken to mean going the extra mile in terms of things such as DTP, or the use of software for converting documents (for example), or suchlike, then although this may justify a slightly higher price, it doesn't constitute a real-terms increase in one's rates for translation, as one is performing extra work (and, where relevant, has incurred additional expenses) for that extra money.
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