| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | .02 Translation job sent through ProZ connect! Thread poster: Jeff Whittaker
|
|---|
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
Why does everything need to shift toward the lowest common denominator instead of the other way around?
Seconded, Jeff. However, I think the question is not "why", but "how" we can prevent them from selling their services at ridiculous rates (because they are selling them at those rates and we all know that).
Long story short, if both parties (well, actually all three parties, including the end client) are happy, then so be it. Free market it is. The sad reality is that many of us, more often than not, are getting sluggish texts to edit. And let me tell you, oftentimes I spend more hours than I actually invoice, but there is no way I can raise the dead, unless I retranslate the text. Sad but true.
| | | | Jeff Whittaker 
United States
Local time: 13:42
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
That's one of the reasons (apart from it being poorly paid) that I have never offered an editing service.
Also, I am beginning to wonder if the translator - editor model is becoming outdated given today's needs, lowered expectations and time requirements.
Merab Dekano wrote:
The sad reality is that many of us, more often than not, are getting sluggish texts to edit. And let me tell you, oftentimes I spend more hours than I actually invoice, but there is no way I can raise the dead, unless I retranslate the text. Sad but true.
[Edited at 2015-01-14 22:58 GMT]
| | | | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 13:42
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | No, they are based in Latin America, but US currency was specified | Jan 14, 2015 |
Robert Rietvelt wrote:
@Jeff
American agency?
[Edited at 2015-01-14 23:34 GMT]
| | |
|
|
|
Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 13:42
Spanish to English
+ ...
| What really is the point of Proz Connect? | Jan 15, 2015 |
I agree with Jeff, Bernhard, and others who find such postings outrageous.
But it is even more outrageous to receive an e-mail from Proz Connect alerting me to such an "opportunity."
I truly don't see the point of Proz Connect if all it does is send e-mails alerting me to the fact that there is a posting on the Jobs Board that is likely no better or worse than the average such posting in my language pair.
Perhaps a proz.com staff person can enlighten us at... See more I agree with Jeff, Bernhard, and others who find such postings outrageous.
But it is even more outrageous to receive an e-mail from Proz Connect alerting me to such an "opportunity."
I truly don't see the point of Proz Connect if all it does is send e-mails alerting me to the fact that there is a posting on the Jobs Board that is likely no better or worse than the average such posting in my language pair.
Perhaps a proz.com staff person can enlighten us at to what added value such a service provides.
[Edited at 2015-01-15 01:31 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | EvaVer (X)
Local time: 19:42
Czech to French
+ ...
| Eastern Europe is not as poor as you think | Jan 15, 2015 |
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
$1000 gross is Eastern Europe, Latin America, Africa, Russia, etc.: the translator enjoyed one of the best winters of their life.
You have a somewhat deformed idea of Eastern Europe. We would just about survive on that here. It might be true of some African countries, OK. For your information, my usual rate for US clients is 0.07, I consider the equivalent of 2000 a month a sufficient income and usually earn twice that (at normal exchange rates, not now - most of my business is still local, and the Czech crown has been going down the toilet...)
[Edited at 2015-01-15 07:30 GMT]
| | | | | Neither is Latin America | Jan 15, 2015 |
I know Latin America and there is still a lot of poverty, but a translator is a highly educated person, also in Latin America, who also has to pay his/her bills, and the proposed rate doesn't.
In short: an outrageous proposal.
[Edited at 2015-01-15 10:03 GMT]
| | | | Terence Noonan (X)
United States
Local time: 13:42
German to English
+ ...
| A market for lemonz | Jan 15, 2015 |
The article below describes how these types of "opportunities" are more the norm than the exception here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons
[Edited at 2015-01-15 11:06 GMT]
"A lemon market will be produced by the following:
-Asymmetry of information, in which no buyers can accurately assess the value of a product through exa... See more The article below describes how these types of "opportunities" are more the norm than the exception here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons
[Edited at 2015-01-15 11:06 GMT]
"A lemon market will be produced by the following:
-Asymmetry of information, in which no buyers can accurately assess the value of a product through examination before sale is made and all sellers can more accurately assess the value of a product prior to sale
-An incentive exists for the seller to pass off a low-quality product as a higher-quality one
-Sellers have no credible disclosure technology (sellers with a great car have no way to disclose this credibly to buyers)
-Either a continuum of seller qualities exists or the average seller type is sufficiently low (buyers are sufficiently pessimistic about the seller's quality)
-Deficiency of effective public quality assurances (by reputation or regulation and/or of effective guarantees/warranties)"
In a lemon market, providers of quality product will exit the marketplace as they are unable to command a premium over the average product in that marketplace. This is because the buyers are suspicious enough of low quality that they will lower their offered prices in order to hedge their risk of getting junk for their money. The increasing absence of quality providers only serves to drive down the average quality in the marketplace even further. And this, in turn, serves to further reduce average trading prices as the buyer's quality expectations are lowered still. At some point most of the buyers and sellers of quality product will have abandoned the marketplace entirely, at which point only "subprime" providers and extreme bargain hunting buyers doing are business there.
[Edited at 2015-01-15 12:27 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 19:42
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Why, because | Jan 15, 2015 |
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
Why does everything need to shift toward the lowest common denominator instead of the other way around?
Because some people regard it as unethical to charge excessive rates, even in a free market. That said, I'm not sure if USD 0.021 is a liveable translation rate anywhere.
To those who use the "Africa and Eastern Europe" argument, one should rather back that up with numbers. For a quick comparison, use Numbeo's listings (don't forget to compare specific countries with the USA as a whole, which has a price index of 52 (not 100) on Numbeo's price index scale (this is because Numbeo calibrates by NYC)). Most East European countries have a price index of about 25.
The South African "normal" rate of ZAR 0.6 per word converts by exchange rate to USD 0.055 per word, and a South African person with USD 0.055 can buy as much stuff as a US resident could with USD 0.09. Even so, a rate of USD 0.021 would not be considered a "good winter" in South Africa.
| | | | | That article... | Jan 15, 2015 |
...is pretty much nonsense.
The used car market has not collapsed nor will it in the foreseeable future. Some people have to buy cars no matter what and can't afford new ones.
| | | | Terence Noonan (X)
United States
Local time: 13:42
German to English
+ ...
| The guy won a Nobel Prize for that paper | Jan 15, 2015 |
Terry Richards wrote:
...is pretty much nonsense.
The used car market has not collapsed nor will it in the foreseeable future. Some people have to buy cars no matter what and can't afford new ones.
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economic-sciences/laureates/2001/akerlof-article.html
The economic implications of information asymmetry between buyers and sellers are highly relevant with respect to the buying, selling and marketing of translation services.
[Edited at 2015-01-15 12:04 GMT]
| | | | | The #1 best explanation for low rates in translation | Jan 15, 2015 |
Indeed, Akerlof's thesis explains the downward drive in translation rates: "the seller knows more about a product than the buyer".
The only missing link here to close the loop with Akerlof's analogy would be equating free online machine translation to the day when used cars get offered for free on sites like the "Free Your Stuff" communities on Facebook. Of course, there is the usual DMV registration red tape, but who would BUY a used car of unknown roadworthiness, if they could get one for free?
Demanding translation clients who actually know what they'll get from a specific translator will not hesitate to pay reasonable rates set by the latter.
Meanwhile clients who have no clue on what they'll get, tend to look for a 'patsy' who will accept a despicably low rate they'll offer. The rationale is that if they are buying a "black box", it should be very cheap.
Let's try to organize it a bit.
Level 1: Some translators tend to vent their frustration here about not being able to find enough clients. Many of them, particularly newbies, seem to expect that Proz will pour a steady stream of orders at their feet, for them to choose from.
Level 2: Other translators get a number of requests, however they complain here about the low rates offered. Apparently there is a mismatch between what they know that they are offering and the prospect's perception of that.
Level 3: They get a regular inflow of orders at the rate they chose as adequate, one which provides them an acceptable lifestyle in exchange for suitable working hours, and room to grow.
The problem at Level 1 is basic marketing. As the translation marketplace is overcrowded with amateurs, and clever web site development makes it possible to build a virtual façade completely different from what's behind it, one must find other ways to show their reliability and value.
The issue at Level 2 is more advanced marketing, on two fronts.
a) Qualify your prospects. If all they want is to get that darn thing in another language as cheaply as possible, Google Translate will serve them well for free.
b) Your price is right: Sell it! You have to provide your serious prospects reasons why what you deliver is worth the price you charge for it. As simple as that! (though it's easier said than done)
Finally, the problem at Level 3 is of a more mathematical nature. You need a good grasp of your market, knowing how much equally reliable 'competitors' charge for the very level of service/value you offer. From there, you have a very delicate balancing operation to set your rates.
If you set them too low, you'll have excessive demand, and might not have enough working hours to make as much as you should.
If you set them too high, demand will tend to be lower. You'll have to work less hours to reach your intended income, however cost-watching prospects will avoid assigning jobs to you as much as possible.
The entire issue is about driving home to your prospects what is the actual value of what you deliver. Don't take it for granted that they'll surmise it from your CV or your profile anywhere.
| | |
|
|
|
| I don't care what he won, it's still nonsense. | Jan 15, 2015 |
As I pointed out, there are (quite common) situations where people have to buy regardless of their information disadvantage. If you need a car to get to work and yours just blew up, you have no choice.
Secondly, there are ways for the purchaser to address the information deficit. They may be knowledgeable about cars themselves or they can bring along a knowledgeable friend. They can also have the car examined by a reliable third party (their local garage).
There are al... See more As I pointed out, there are (quite common) situations where people have to buy regardless of their information disadvantage. If you need a car to get to work and yours just blew up, you have no choice.
Secondly, there are ways for the purchaser to address the information deficit. They may be knowledgeable about cars themselves or they can bring along a knowledgeable friend. They can also have the car examined by a reliable third party (their local garage).
There are also ways for the seller to address the information imbalance. If they can provide a detailed service history properly completed by a known reliable main dealer then they can demonstrate that the car has been properly maintained. A properly maintained car is of a higher quality than one that hasn't been.
There are also situations where the owner of a better than average car has to sell it. They can't withdraw it from sale because merely owning a car incurs costs (insurance, taxes, etc.). There is also the lost opportunity cost of what they could do with the money.
Perhaps I should apply for a Nobel in economics myself. I always wanted the physics one but I guess I could settle ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 13:42
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Eastern Europe | Jan 15, 2015 |
Perhaps, but that was not my comment. I was quoting someone else and I stated that IF this were true, THEN....
EvaVer wrote:
You have a somewhat deformed idea of Eastern Europe. We would just about survive on that here. It might be true of some African countries, OK. For your information, my usual rate for US clients is 0.07, I consider the equivalent of 2000 a month a sufficient income and usually earn twice that (at normal exchange rates, not now - most of my business is still local, and the Czech crown has been going down the toilet...)
[Edited at 2015-01-15 07:30 GMT]
[Edited at 2015-01-15 14:52 GMT]
| | | |
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
Perhaps, but that was not my comment. I was quoting someone else and I stated that IF this were true, THEN....
Correct. It was my text. Now facts:
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Belgium&city1=Brussels&country2=Czech%20Republic&city2=Prague
Average Monthly Disposable Salary (Brussels): 2,010.17 €
Average Monthly Disposable Salary (Prague): 862.72 €
The factor is about 2.3.
I was too "optimistic". $1000 gross will not do the trick.
Anyways, my point is not to prove Eastern Europe is cheap or Western Europe is expensive. The only point I am trying to make is that a "translator" who lives in Brussels cannot afford $0.02. However, a "translator" who has chosen Prague as their place of residence, may be "tempted" (as some/many are).
I also think that no professional translator will even consider $0.02, no matter where they live. Wannabe translators will (and are).
[Edited at 2015-01-15 15:23 GMT]
[Edited at 2015-01-15 15:24 GMT]
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » .02 Translation job sent through ProZ connect! | Wordfast Pro | Translation Memory Software for Any Platform
Exclusive discount for ProZ.com users!
Save over 13% when purchasing Wordfast Pro through ProZ.com. Wordfast is the world's #1 provider of platform-independent Translation Memory software. Consistently ranked the most user-friendly and highest value
Buy now! » |
| | CafeTran Espresso | You've never met a CAT tool this clever!
Translate faster & easier, using a sophisticated CAT tool built by a translator / developer.
Accept jobs from clients who use Trados, MemoQ, Wordfast & major CAT tools.
Download and start using CafeTran Espresso -- for free
Buy now! » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news
