| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] | Proz publishing the ads with exploitative rates Thread poster: Sandesh Ghimire
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:20
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Ana Sánchez Maragoto wrote:
In the free market there is something called dumping, which is a practice against the competition law.
In a free market there is no competition law.
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Tom in London wrote:
Ana Sánchez Maragoto wrote:
In the free market there is something called dumping, which is a practice against the competition law.
In a free market there is no competition law.
But without at least some competition law the market scarcely remains free.
Marcos Cardenas wrote:
But who makes rates go down? (...)
Agencies both large and small (the small to cater to the large and scoop their contracts when farmed out).
[Edited at 2015-05-11 10:17 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:20
Member (2008)
Italian to English
If a market is regulated, it isn't a free market.
| | | | | Free market doesn't mean you accept unrealistic demand(s) | May 11, 2015 |
Tom in London wrote:
If a market is regulated, it isn't a free market.
Yes, and that's why it's important that the translators supplying their services in it understand how it works.
It doesn't mean that you must simply accept unreasonable demand(s). Many more newcomers wouldn't do this if they were aware of the consequences for themselves and the profession.
Let's not just state a few obvious things - it makes it easy to believe that crooks have a rightful place in the free market.
Before you tell me that anyone (even crooks) can participate in the free market, I would say that there are such crooks (individuals and companies), which doesn't make it right, and that we, the suppliers, must deal with that. One way is to tell other suppliers what is professional competition and what is not. Another way is to tell prospective clients what translation work and other language services entail and that our services are priced adequately and fairly for what we offer to ensure the continued success of our business. This has become more important lately because many people on our side as well as on the agency side have entered the market offering their services at irresponsible and unrealistic prices. These prices do not sustain a healthy business, and such behavior isn't conscientious of quality of service and assurance of required income for professional translators.
Sometimes, governments step in to ensure a minimum of fairness (social agenda), prevent blatant exploitation, even in a capitalistic system (look at the minimum wage in the US). There are pros and cons for that, but it shows that there are a lot of factors at play in a free market.
My point is that the successful interplay between supply and demand (quality service and quality demands) hinges on the players and economic realities, which, in our case as translators, have a lot to do with educated market behavior to ensure our livelihood, success of our business, and the future of the profession.
So I urge everyone to think about what they're doing in this market, including those who help facilitate the job exchange, and should you discuss the issue, I recommend trying to avoid misunderstandings for the general reader or particularly the newcomers in our profession because it's probably especially the latter who read this.
It's a free market, yes, but that doesn't mean you float to rock bottom (prices) because you didn't educate yourself about how you successful operate in it, about the crooks and the tricks, about the consequences of your actions for yourself or the profession or because you didn't think you had to care because if something is offered at a translation project/job exchange, it must be okay.
[Edited at 2015-05-11 13:47 GMT]
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:20
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| We don't need to | May 11, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
.....One way is to tell other suppliers what is professional competition and what is not....
I don't think we need to worry too much. Just a little, but not much.
Ultimately what the translation market is looking for is an optimised relationship between quality/cost/professionalism.
If you can demonstrate that your translations are of the highest quality, free of errors, are always delivered on time and formatted correctly, and if you charge a rate that realistically reflects the time and effort required to achieve that performance, then you should have nothing to worry about.
Ignore bottom-feeders and undercutters; they are digging their own graves. Don't think you have to compete with them.
[Edited at 2015-05-11 14:42 GMT]
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 13:20
Greek to English
+ ...
| Not a free market | May 11, 2015 |
I am company XYZ Inc. I pay the agency 0.28 plus various other charges.
Do I know how much the translator is actually paid?
Would my decision be different if I am informed that the translator is paid 0.04, and all other editors etc. come up to 0.1, leaving a huge profit to the middleman?
Also, is it true that just 3 agencies have 90% of the market in certain languages?
A trully free market requires:
a) A lot more transparency (so that participants make infor... See more I am company XYZ Inc. I pay the agency 0.28 plus various other charges.
Do I know how much the translator is actually paid?
Would my decision be different if I am informed that the translator is paid 0.04, and all other editors etc. come up to 0.1, leaving a huge profit to the middleman?
Also, is it true that just 3 agencies have 90% of the market in certain languages?
A trully free market requires:
a) A lot more transparency (so that participants make informed choices)
b) No monopolies
A free market requires "informed choice". Without rate transparency in as many levels as possible, "informed choice" is impossible. I don't even know what translators charge. I don't know what the agency charges to a client for a specific project. The client doesn't know how much the actual production costs. The end-client doesn't even know that almost all translators are external free lancers (seriously, they think that translators are internal). So, where's the informed choice? Where's the free market?
Have you ever seen the reaction of an agency, when the end-client receives a note that says "Hi, I translated your project for 0.05. How much did you pay the agency?".
The rate secrecy by most agencies means that this market is not free, but manipulated. A "free" market under the table, that's what it is...
How many of you know that some agencies charge their clients $75/hour formatting, which you already provided for free? Or that only 1/20 end-clients require an analysis by fuzzy matches etc? (the vast majority pays the entire word count each time, with a "discount on formatting" if they complain about it...). Or that many end-clients are charged a rush fee for every 1,500 words/per 24 hours?
[Edited at 2015-05-11 23:12 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Totally agreed. | May 13, 2015 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
I am company XYZ Inc. I pay the agency 0.28 plus various other charges.
Do I know how much the translator is actually paid?
Would my decision be different if I am informed that the translator is paid 0.04, and all other editors etc. come up to 0.1, leaving a huge profit to the middleman?
Also, is it true that just 3 agencies have 90% of the market in certain languages?
A trully free market requires:
a) A lot more transparency (so that participants make informed choices)
b) No monopolies
A free market requires "informed choice". Without rate transparency in as many levels as possible, "informed choice" is impossible. I don't even know what translators charge. I don't know what the agency charges to a client for a specific project. The client doesn't know how much the actual production costs. The end-client doesn't even know that almost all translators are external free lancers (seriously, they think that translators are internal). So, where's the informed choice? Where's the free market?
Have you ever seen the reaction of an agency, when the end-client receives a note that says "Hi, I translated your project for 0.05. How much did you pay the agency?".
The rate secrecy by most agencies means that this market is not free, but manipulated. A "free" market under the table, that's what it is...
How many of you know that some agencies charge their clients $75/hour formatting, which you already provided for free? Or that only 1/20 end-clients require an analysis by fuzzy matches etc? (the vast majority pays the entire word count each time, with a "discount on formatting" if they complain about it...). Or that many end-clients are charged a rush fee for every 1,500 words/per 24 hours?
[Edited at 2015-05-11 23:12 GMT]
| | | | | What about this platform? | May 13, 2015 |
Tom in London wrote:
If a market is regulated, it isn't a free market.
We are on a translation-market platform that is subject to regulations. Then why is it impossible to regulate the conditions for both companies offering peanuts and "translators" accepting them? I've read your comments using the third-world-country argument, but that is not the important background issue here as long as accuracy and high standards are met.
I put the word translator in quotes because today anyone can be a translator, isn't it? How many members and non-members here aren't actually professional linguists? Is this a normal phenomenon in other fields, for example, medicine? I know a lot about medicine but that doesn't make me a physician.
From this perspective, which most people reject, I do believe that the "market" in this platform at least can and should be regulated. In this way, many unethical practices, including scamming, from both parties could be reduced and avoided.
If we want a fair, transparent market, we should first stop demeaning our profession.
[Edited at 2015-05-13 17:08 GMT]
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Tom in London wrote:
If a market is regulated, it isn't a free market.
Free market? Markets have never been so regulated as today. They are free as a result of specific regulations.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:20
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| that isn't the meaning of a free market | Jun 3, 2015 |
A free market is a market that is completely unregulated.
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a free and unregulated market is exploitative, and regulation is there to make it a bit fairer.
| | | | Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:20
Serbian to English
+ ...
Dan Lucas wrote:
houtberg wrote:
If proz does not have any power over these low rates, then proz is the main factor of these low rates. Guilty by lack of activity.
And thus this market is not free but dictated, indirectly, in some sense.
So if ProZ does nothing, and allows the market to take its course, then the market is not free.
But if ProZ were to interfere and regulate the market by forbidding some jobs, the market would then be free?
I'm having difficulty following that line of argument.
Dan
let's go back to the basics:
"free market" makes sense if:
- on the offer side there is no monopoly or oligopoly
- on the supply side there is no monopoly or oligopoly
- ALL the information about all suppliers and all buyers is available to everyone
- ALL sellers and buyers have perfect/total information about/knowledge of the goods/services offered
- all sellers and all buyers have comparable negotiating power
you recognise this nice theory in the market for translation services, via Proz or otherwise?
The real-word “free market” is more like "the free fox and the free henhouse" ...
Anyway, if the “free market” is such a panacea, and all that is needed is just to "allows the market to take its course" why is there any need for so many “regulators” meddling with the free market?
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Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:20
Serbian to English
+ ...
| no competition law? | Jun 5, 2015 |
Tom in London wrote:
Ana Sánchez Maragoto wrote:
In the free market there is something called dumping, which is a practice against the competition law.
In a free market there is no competition law.
Leaving aside the competition rules as per Art. 85 and 86 of the Treaty of Rome (European Economic Community (EEC)) a.k.a. Art. 101 and 102 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) in their current incarnation, looking closer to home I think that the Trading Standards may have some objections to the idea that in a free market there are no rules ...
Facts can really be annoying...
| | | | | free market... | Jun 7, 2015 |
is a misnomer... do some research...
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