| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Lower rates because test is not perfect Thread poster: Marion van Venrooij-Rooijmans
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mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 15:45
Spanish to English
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| Please remove foot from mouth before laying fingers on keyboard | Dec 27, 2007 |
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
Ask for same rates regardless of country
I think it unfair to work cheaper for customers from socalled low-wage countries than for those from normal countries. Translation is a global business. The only guideline should be the price-level of your own country of residence, where you live and spend your money. It would be unfair because our customers have to compete globally too.
If someone wants cheap translations, let him look for translators from cheap countries.
Cheers
Heinrich
As a British ex-pat living in a 'low-wage country' following early retirement after some 25 years as a employee of a well-known European media organization based in Geneva (preceded by almost 10 years with an equally well-known UK broadcaster), I am completely and utterly dismayed on reading Heinrich's comments.
Perhaps I can best illustrate my reasons by paraphrasing Heinrich's own contribution, thus:
Don't (necessarily) ask for the same rates regardless of country
It think is it entirely reasonable to work cheaper for customers from so-called low-wage countries than for those from wealthier countries. Although translation is a global business, the only guideline should be the price-level of the client's country of residence (hence, the client's ability to pay), regardless of where I, as a translator, choose to live and spend my money. That's perfectly fair because we, as translators, are competing with translators from the client's own country, too (and it would be grossly unfair if we were ruthlessly to undercut them, simply because house prices are far lower here than elsewhere, wouldn't it?).
If someone wants cheap translations, let them look for cheap translators - regardless of the wealth of the country where they happen to be living.
Cheers,
MediaMatrix
| | | | Andrea Riffo 
Chile
Local time: 15:45
English to Spanish
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You could ask them how, exactly, do they intend to evaluate in a mutually satisfactory manner whether you have finally achieved the quality they are allegedly seeking and thus earn the rates you originally stated... perhaps tell them that you expect detailed feedback on all translations for the next XX months??
I mean, if they expect YOU to compromise and sacrifice some money on the basis of an evaluation you have not yet seen, THEY should be willing to compromise and sacrifice a bi... See more You could ask them how, exactly, do they intend to evaluate in a mutually satisfactory manner whether you have finally achieved the quality they are allegedly seeking and thus earn the rates you originally stated... perhaps tell them that you expect detailed feedback on all translations for the next XX months??
I mean, if they expect YOU to compromise and sacrifice some money on the basis of an evaluation you have not yet seen, THEY should be willing to compromise and sacrifice a bit of their time as well, wouldn't you say? :D:D
Have a great New Year!
Andrea ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Fair, but it depends | Dec 28, 2007 |
Of course it is fair to ask for lower rates when the work done is of a lower quality, since it will take more time and money to make sure the quality is satisfactory. Nothing wrong with that. However, I would not accept to lower my rates on such grounds if it is not proven without a doubt that the quality really isn't on par with the rate you charge. It's not enough to say "the quality could be better" - they should show you what exactly the errors found were and prove that they really ar... See more Of course it is fair to ask for lower rates when the work done is of a lower quality, since it will take more time and money to make sure the quality is satisfactory. Nothing wrong with that. However, I would not accept to lower my rates on such grounds if it is not proven without a doubt that the quality really isn't on par with the rate you charge. It's not enough to say "the quality could be better" - they should show you what exactly the errors found were and prove that they really are errors. There could be lots of possibilities: maybe your test was proofed by someone who doesn't like your style and corrected style issues as they personally deemed fit, and you didn't really make any errors, maybe they are trying to trick you into lowering your rates, etc. But I think that if the quality issue was that costly in your case, then the most obvious business decision for them would be to simply give work to someone who can offer better quality rather than hanging onto someone who is not so great and will probably cause delays. This doesn't really make sense, unless you work in a very rare language combination for which it is really tough finding translators. This is the bug you should reflect on. If they are a serious business, they wouldn't waste their time and money working with people who cannot supply the quality they want to supply to their clients, would they? ▲ Collapse
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If someone wants cheap translations, let him look for translators from cheap countries.
Cheers
Heinrich
THAT IS RUDE INDEED!!
But regarding your post, when someone starts asking for better prices, from the very beginning, what else do you want to expect form such relationship??
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Gina Ferlisi
Local time: 19:45
Member (2008)
Italian to English
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| Payment at 90 days because of some errors in the text | Dec 29, 2007 |
I got a similar problem, but with an Italian agency, after doing 65 pages in 6 days the deadline was terrible but it was an easy topic i sent back the texts , happy with myself in completing the work in 6 days, however the agency wrote to me after 3 weeks saying that they proofed the translation by 3 different italian PM in their company and found some small errors , and the format was changed..i was shocked as the format of the texts was always the same , however she said that she would pay me... See more I got a similar problem, but with an Italian agency, after doing 65 pages in 6 days the deadline was terrible but it was an easy topic i sent back the texts , happy with myself in completing the work in 6 days, however the agency wrote to me after 3 weeks saying that they proofed the translation by 3 different italian PM in their company and found some small errors , and the format was changed..i was shocked as the format of the texts was always the same , however she said that she would pay me only half of the quoted price and instead of paying me at 30 days as stated she would pay me at 90 days and also that if the following jobs have that same quality she would ask me to pay them for their public image damaged..its incredible, I was furious and i sent the text to be proofed by two different highly qualifed proz memebr who told me it was all ok and that they were only looking for excuses for not paying me , unfortunatly in this business you will always find those agency that for not paying you will find errors, i found them after 20 years not abroad but here in Italy the worse thing is that they punish you by paying you at 90 days and not 30 days as stated ..its blackmail.
Happy new year to all of you!!
[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2007-12-29 09:24] ▲ Collapse
| | | | MariusV
Lithuania
Local time: 20:45
English to Lithuanian
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| I do not understand... | Dec 30, 2007 |
Why they relate their negotiations on the rates with you and the test translation results? Can't they simply tell that "we would like some negotiation on your rates"?
Moreover, if the test translation contained only some minor things, it shall NOT involve a lot of work checking what they receive from you. And if it is a professional agency (at least they claim to be very picky for quality), they should have someone to revise translations received from you IN ANY CASE (you do transla... See more Why they relate their negotiations on the rates with you and the test translation results? Can't they simply tell that "we would like some negotiation on your rates"?
Moreover, if the test translation contained only some minor things, it shall NOT involve a lot of work checking what they receive from you. And if it is a professional agency (at least they claim to be very picky for quality), they should have someone to revise translations received from you IN ANY CASE (you do translation and they do proofreading of your translation to ensure a maximum quality). Last thing - have they indicated those "minor things" in your test (what they think shall be improved or what they think shall be done upon their preferences)?
I'd put it simple - here are my rates (I do not negotiate) and "take or leave it". If you agree to cooperate for such rates, always welcome. Just one condition - "I always welcome your comments for the purpose of improving my work, but all and any comments shall be indicated by your proof-reader and when it comes to payment, the amount can be reduced only when there are obvious things, substantiated and non-followed remarks of your proof-reader". Best of all - I'd not cooperate with such an agency as they are playing cheap tricks from the very beginning (just the fact that they copy-paste the same "feedback email" to numerous people). What comes next? Say, if you do a big project and have a substantial due amount and they come up to you with some new "inventions"...? I'd concentrate on the agencies that agree to pay my usual rate and who do not play those cheap kindergarten games. ▲ Collapse
| | | | MariusV
Lithuania
Local time: 20:45
English to Lithuanian
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| WHAT versus HOW | Dec 30, 2007 |
LAURA TAPIA wrote:
If someone wants cheap translations, let him look for translators from cheap countries.
Cheers
Heinrich
THAT IS RUDE INDEED!!
But regarding your post, when someone starts asking for better prices, from the very beginning, what else do you want to expect form such relationship??
I do not think it is rude. If people have an intent for a deal and if they do not agree on the price of the deal, WHAT is rude here ? No one has an obligation to accept conditions that are not of an interest. Negotiation is a normal thing as everyone wants to pull the blanket to one's side, however, I think it is rude from the point of view of the agency to relate a simple negotiation on the rate with all possible irrelevant things. Do they think that translators have sand in their heads (instead of the brain)?
| | | | mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 15:45
Spanish to English
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| Cheap remarks = rudeness. | Dec 30, 2007 |
MariusV wrote:
LAURA TAPIA wrote:
If someone wants cheap translations, let him look for translators from cheap countries.
Cheers
Heinrich
THAT IS RUDE INDEED!!
But regarding your post, when someone starts asking for better prices, from the very beginning, what else do you want to expect form such relationship??
I do not think it is rude. If people have an intent for a deal and if they do not agree on the price of the deal, WHAT is rude here ? No one has an obligation to accept conditions that are not of an interest. Negotiation is a normal thing as everyone wants to pull the blanket to one's side, however, I think it is rude from the point of view of the agency to relate a simple negotiation on the rate with all possible irrelevant things. Do they think that translators have sand in their heads (instead of the brain)?
Marius,
You seem to have missed the point of Heinrich's statement - and you have clearly not understood the reaction from Laura (and myself, although you've not mentioned my previous post in this thread). The circumstances under which a translator enters into a contract with a client is irrelevant in qualfying the quoted statement as 'rude'.
What is rude in Heinrich's statement - which plays on the ambiguity of the word 'cheap' - is the clear inference that translations from low-cost (cheap) countries are necessarily cheap - in both senses of this word: 'not expensive' and of 'poor quality'.
It is rude - insulting, even - because there are many ex-pat translators living and working in low-cost countries (like myself...) who offer top-grade services based on years of experience in 'expensive' countries and we charge top-of-the-market prices for them. And there are many native translators in so-called 'cheap' countries who also offer world-class services at world-class prices. And good luck to them!
MediaMatrix
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| Quality of feedback | Dec 31, 2007 |
If an agency makes comments regarding the quality of a test (or a translation) but does not provide a marked-up copy of that translation for you to review, I would not take that agency seriously. The fact that several other posters here have received this form letter asking for lower prices is a pretty strong indication that something is a bit rotten.
I would ignore these people and move on. They aren't worth your time.
| | | | | In plain English | Jan 1, 2008 |
MariusV wrote:
Why they relate their negotiations on the rates with you and the test translation results? Can't they simply tell that "we would like some negotiation on your rates"?
...
I'd put it simple - here are my rates (I do not negotiate) and "take or leave it".
There is the message in here - Your test translation is bad, reduce your prices. Take it or leave it.
In plain words, they attack a lady first, and the lady seems to be doubtful about the quality of her translations now (we can ustand this from her address to colleagues at this forum). Respectively she is more 'soft' and ready to accept what the agency is going to offer.
It's ABC of trading negotiations. Please read any book on this matter for sales managers. You will stop asking 'naive' questions after that.
[Edited at 2008-01-01 11:10]
| | | | | No credible message | Jan 1, 2008 |
Sergei Tumanov wrote:
There is the message in here - Your test translation is bad, reduce your prices. Take it or leave it.
There is no credible message at all without accompanying documentation. The fact that the actual text of this message appears to be a form letter sent to several other colleagues at the same time further undermines its credibility. Maybe they really are all rotten translators, I think it is more of a ham-fisted negotiating tactic akin to Nikita Khruschev banging his shoe on a desk - nothing to be taken seriously.
As Marion said:
... the past year has been very busy and my clients have been happy with my work. Most of them pay me my standard rates, there's only one that pays a bit less and I often have to turn jobs down because I am too busy with jobs from agencies that pay more.
Taking that and the other factors into account it sounds like she is delivering acceptable value at her standard prices and would be very foolish to give in to such puerile, transparent negotiating tactics. They may accept this or not, but I would say it's no loss to her in the latter case.
| | | | | nobody doubts | Jan 1, 2008 |
that the lady is a good translator.
even that agency from Russia has no doubts.
I am sorry to say, but you miss the forest behind the trees here.
[Edited at 2008-01-01 20:48]
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| Lady Marion speaks | Jan 2, 2008 |
Sergei, Kevin, I love the fact that you call me a lady. Makes me feel like I'm not at my desk in my jammies, but riding horse in a beautiful dress.
Sergei, you hit the nail on its head. There are so many people who know so much more about translation than I do, that basically anyone can tell me my translations are of poor quality and I will believe them. I was definitely thinking about lowering my rates; 'if there are ... See more Sergei, Kevin, I love the fact that you call me a lady. Makes me feel like I'm not at my desk in my jammies, but riding horse in a beautiful dress.
Sergei, you hit the nail on its head. There are so many people who know so much more about translation than I do, that basically anyone can tell me my translations are of poor quality and I will believe them. I was definitely thinking about lowering my rates; 'if there are errors in my translation, then I don't deserve these rates'. They almost had me there... Let's hope my confidence will grow over the years.
I contacted Margreet, as she asked me to do. We were definitely talking about the same company. I do not know Margreet personally or professionally, but in all her posts on this forum, she comes across as a highly-skilled translator. The fact that she received the same email, stating that there were some small issues with her test translation, is a very bad sign indeed.
I've contacted the agency and asked them for their comments, even though I'm pretty sure they won't tell me anything. That's OK though, I probably don't want to work for them anyway.
[Edited at 2008-01-02 10:21] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Uldis Liepkalns
Latvia
Local time: 20:45
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
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| Not serious or logical | Jan 2, 2008 |
from an Agency's viewpoint to offer less for not so good translation. Or order it at all. (If they are knowing the quality beforehand, I mean).
I have an Agency. And what I'm going to do with a poor quality translation, even if I got it cheaper??? Sell it to the client at the half a price? Spend as much additionally on editing (and plus my additional work and time) as it would cost me to get a good quality translation the first thing?
Not serious.
Uldis
| | | | Margreet Logmans (X)
Netherlands
Local time: 19:45
English to Dutch
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| Thanks for the compliment | Jan 2, 2008 |
Marion Rooijmans wrote:
I contacted Margreet, as she asked me to do. We were definitely talking about the same company. I do not know Margreet personally or professionally, but in all her posts on this forum, she comes across as a highly-skilled translator. The fact that she received the same email, stating that there were some small issues with her test translation, is a very bad sign indeed.
As I told you privately, I'm just trying to find out what will come out of all this, I'll keep you posted. And I'll definitely raise my rates as soon as they start giving me a serious workload - and pay my invoices
Thanks for the compliment!
I don't believe the quality-issue, it's just a negotiating technique, IMO. And not a very pleasant one....
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