Glossary entry

English term or phrase:

underwater

Chinese translation:

價外(適用於股票、股票選擇權);市值低於貸款餘額(適用於抵押貸款)

Apr 17, 2009 16:54
15 yrs ago
4 viewers *
English term

underwater

GBK English to Chinese Bus/Financial Finance (general)
Definition from own experience or research:
A condition in which the market value of an asset is lower than either the amount owed on the asset (in the case of a real estate mortgage, for example) or the contracted amount for which the asset can be purchased, "called" or "put" (in the case of stock and stock options, for example.)
Example sentences:
Housing prices have plummeted and some homeowners are severely underwater - meaning they owe more than their homes are worth. (CNNMoney.com)
One in five U.S. mortgage borrowers are underwater (Reuters)
Obama’s plan permits refinancing only for homeowners underwater by a maximum 5 percent. Rosen recommends raising that limit to 25 percent. (Bloomberg)
Change log

Apr 17, 2009 16:36: changed "Kudoz queue" from "In queue" to "Public"

Apr 17, 2009 16:54: changed "Stage" from "Preparation" to "Submission"

Apr 20, 2009 16:54: changed "Stage" from "Submission" to "Selection"

Jun 24, 2009 17:54: changed "Stage" from "Selection" to "Completion"

Proposed translations

+2
45 days
Selected

價外(適用於股票、股票選擇權);市值低於貸款餘額(適用於抵押貸款)

The translation of the term "underwater" should be further subdivided according to the field applied. When used in the mortgage loan scenario, "underwater" indicates the market value is lower than the amount owned on the property -> 市值低於貸款餘額; When used in the stock and stock option markets, it indicates the transaction condition in the market is better than the condition specified in the transaction contract. In the field of options, this kind of options are called "價外" 選擇權, which means the transaction price in the market is better than that specified in the option contract and hence makes the option contract not worthy of execution.

As you can see, the "underwater" has very different meanings in each scenario, and this suggests that the "underwater" should have different translations in different contexts. In other words, it might not have a universal translation here. Its translations should be further subdivided according to the fields related.


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Note added at 68 days (2009-06-24 18:55:50 GMT) Post-grading
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Hi Karen,
Thanks for your note. Well, although "套牢" might be colloquial, informal and ambiguous (or flexible), but at least in Taiwan, it actually has a clear connection with investment. Basically, "套牢" simply means that "your investment is losing your money." As for the credit card debts, in Taiwan, people will say "揹卡債," but not "套牢." As a result, the investment aspect of "套牢" is something that UNDERWATER might not have in some situations. As for the mortgage, for people who buy house simply to get a place to stay, the "investment" aspect is considered, hence renders "套牢" a translation that "says something the speaker didn't say." That's why I translated it as 市值低於貸款餘額 in this scenario, because this translation reflects its actually meaning and doesn't connect to the investment aspect. Anyway, translation is never easy. : )

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Note added at 68 days (2009-06-24 18:57:47 GMT) Post-grading
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Sorry, lost a word:
As for the mortgage, for people who buy house simply to get a place to stay, the "investment" aspect is "NOT" considered, hence renders "套牢" a translation that "says something the speaker didn't say."
Definition from own experience or research:
價外選擇權,係指履約價高於市價的買權,或履約價低於市價的賣權。<br /><br />市值低於貸款餘額的不動產,係指未清償貸款餘額超過市值的不動產。
Example sentences:
「價外」是指沒有履約價值的選擇權,履約價大於大盤指數的買權,與履約價小於大盤指數的賣權,均屬價外選擇權。 (兆豐期貨)
Note from asker:
It's hard to find a "universal" translation. In my opinion, 套牢 can be used in stocks, options, real estate, or other mentioned situations. It could mean 市值低於貸款餘額, or 贬值, or both, or neither. In daily English, people complain "I am so underwater in credit card debts." 套牢 works here but none of the other proposed phrases. UNDERWATER is a slang and its meaning oftentimes ambiguous. I agree with all the technical discussions but in practice, only 套牢 is as colloquial, informal and ambiguous (or flexible) as UNDERWATER. That I believe is the purpose of translating, a task not necessarily aimed at "definging."
Peer comment(s):

agree Jean Chao (X) : "市值低於貸款餘額"是比較適合用在房地產相關文章內的翻譯。
22 days
agree karen ho
22 days
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
-2
1 day 22 hrs

丧失(抵押品)赎回权

Such an expression is widely used in China mainland, and is a informal legal term.

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Note added at 2天8小时 (2009-04-20 01:19:46 GMT)
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对Karen Ho的答复,原来的地方太小,所以放到这里:
1、Underwater 不代表承債人喪失"贖回權(贖回什麼??)。首先要澄清的是,这个词不是指债务,而是指抵押品的价值低于原来的贷款金额。例如,A原来以X房产作价100万贷款100万,购买Y房产,现在房价下降,X房子只值50万,除非我再提供50万的抵押(可能很多人不能提供),银行就要将X房产收回。所以,我丧失了X房产的赎回权。 Underwater不是针对债务,债务关系依然存在而且不受影响,该还月供还得还,Y房产仍然是我的。否则,即使房价下跌,如果你不用它去抵押贷款,也只是自己的资产贬值,而不会发生任何危机。所以,对这个问题,丧失的是抵押贷款的抵押品赎回权。
2、Underwater在这几个例句中都是动词。“套牢”是一个动词,一般是指自己手上的资产急遽贬值却无法出手。在这里不够确切。“断头”这个词的意思倒是符合这里的意思,如;"如果辜濂松无法在时限内补足,就要面临断头.",“换句话说,如无意外,今年下半年,中信金股价连番破底,频创历史低点,不待最近,辜濂松这位中信集团大家长,很可能老早就已接到质押银行的“断头令”。”(见http://gb.chinareviewnews.com/doc/1007/7/8/3/100778317_2.htm...),这里的“断头”、“断头令”实际上指的就是丧失抵押品赎回权,银行收回抵押品的命令。但是在Google上分别搜索这两个词,你会发现,“断头”用的程度,远不如“丧失抵押品赎回权”多,特别是在大陆地区。而且,我觉得,“断头”(或者说“面临断头”)在中文中的意思过于强烈(比Underwater在英文中的色彩要强烈得多),所以,我觉得不如放弃俗语对俗语的惯例,改用平直的话表达,也就是“丧失抵押品赎回权”
3、关于第三个例句,我同意你的理解,但修正为,是指抵押房的价格于贷款金额最多5%,但我的译法无法很好地表达这个意思。所以翻译时只好详细解释为“抵押房产价格低于抵押贷款金额5%的房主”。
总结一下,Ho 兄可能没有正确理解,Underwater的背景是抵押贷款。要是不涉及抵押的买卖,即使房价再跌,也只是资产的损失,不会造成需要救援的危机。但我的译法,是在其确切意思,“抵押房产价值低于抵押贷款金额”引申而出的,在有些地方可能不甚适合(“断头”也同样不适合)。所以,这个词有时候要用解释的方法来翻译。
请Ho兄指正。

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Note added at 3天11小时 (2009-04-21 04:28:14 GMT)
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To Karen Ho:
1. “Not necessary to explain something we fully understood”, which may I understand as we reaching an agreement regarding the definition of “underwater”, i.e. a mortgaged asset’s liabilities goes beyond its value, so it’s negative valued?
2. I admit that “foreclosure” is the better translation for “丧失抵押品赎回权”, (BTW, your opinion is also apply to 断头, furthermore, 断头 is not so commonly used in China, especially in mainland, as it's a "bad" word, even a curse for any Chinese people.) but it seems to me that it’s hardly to find an accurate equivalent in Chinese for “underwater” (with it's meaning in the example sentences) . So I do some balance with this translation (after all, translation is the art of balancing, or dancing on the blade’s edge.), using its result to refer to it, which may indeed be not so appropriate or exact.
3. If that translation can’t be satisfying, I would like to propose a new word create by me, “沦负”, which means a mortgaged asset’s liabilities goes beyond it’s value, so it’s negative valued (for a asset, like in example sentence 3), also implies "沦为负翁", who's assets are negative valued (for people, like in exapmle sentence 1 and 2).

Housing prices have plummeted and some homeowners are severely underwater - meaning they owe more than their homes are worth.
房价暴跌,房屋业主大量“沦负”——也就是他们的欠款高于他们的房屋价值。

One in five U.S. mortgage borrowers are underwater
五分之一的美国抵押借款人“沦负”。
Obama’s plan permits refinancing only for homeowners underwater by a maximum 5 percent. Rosen recommends raising that limit to 25 percent
奥巴马的计划近允许对“沦负”最多5%的房屋业主提供再融资。罗森建议将这一上限提高至25%。
Definition from own experience or research:
First of all, it seems to me that Enrique’s definition is not so exact, since the definition can&#039;t perfectly match his examples.<br /><br />“Underwater”, in Wikipedia, means “assets (particularly real estate) with negative equity” (see also <b><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_equity)," rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_equity),</a></b> furthermore, one of his example points out that it means “owe more than their homes are worth”。 So, I think “underwater” means the value/price of a mortgage is less than the loan, and the mortgagor loses the right of redemption to the mortgage. In Chinese, it means “丧失赎回权”。<br /><br />This translation can match the example very well.<br /><br /> Housing prices have plummeted and some homeowners are severely underwater - meaning they owe more than their homes are worth. <br />房价暴跌,房屋业主大量丧失赎回权——也就是他们的欠款高于他们的房屋价值。<br /> One in five U.S. mortgage borrowers are underwater <br />五分之一的美国抵押借款人丧失赎回权。<br /> Obama’s plan permits refinancing only for homeowners underwater by a maximum 5 percent. Rosen recommends raising that limit to 25 percent <br />奥巴马的计划近允许对最多5%的丧失赎回权房屋业主提供再融资。罗森建议将这一上限提高至25%。
Example sentences:
报告说,今年上半年,美国家庭有关丧失抵押品赎回权的报告总数为57.34万例,比去年同期上升58%。 (丧失抵押品赎回权)
布什国会谈判进展:援助丧失抵押品赎回权房主 (丧失抵押品赎回权)
Note from asker:
After reading the attached article in Chinese, I believe FORECLOSURE is the word for 丧失抵押品赎回权, which happens after the bank takes legal actions on the mortaged property. Underwater is only a pre- condition that could result in foreclosure.
(1) Not necessary to explain something we fully understood. (2) Like I said, 丧失抵押品赎回权 is the proper translation for "foreclosre" but not "underwater." Being underwater does not equate to being foreclosed. (3) Unnecessary to repeat my comment. I have read the original RealtyTrac and International Herald Tribune articles which were translated by Chinese new agencies and were referred to in your text. Clearly, it was all about foreclosures and all the numbers and statistics were about foreclosures. Millions of American homeowners, shareholders, debtors, consumers are "underwater" but they do not face foreclosure, or 丧失抵押品赎回权. "Underwater的背景是抵押贷款....." Contrary to this understanding, in English "underwater" can be used in situations where there is debt or no debt, colateral or no colateral. Lastly, I understood fully we were asked to translate "underwater", not "foreclosure." There is no need to request translation of foreclosure as it is used widely and daily in numerous publications. It is exactly the search for a coloquial expression that is equivalent to such a vivid description of "underwater" that makes this task interesting and challenging.
喪失抵押品贖回權並非適當翻譯。underwater 充其量只是一種狀況的描述。此外,由於這個詞可適用在許多地方,而非僅限於不動產抵押(例如,從原發文者提供的資料便可得知 underwater 亦可適用於股票或股票選擇權),將其翻譯為喪失贖回權,撇開並無任何權利因此喪失的事實,由於無法適用於其他場合,並非十分妥當。
Peer comment(s):

disagree karen ho : 常用的"丧失赎回权"是不恰當的翻譯. Underwater 不代表承債人喪失"贖回權" (贖回什麼??). 即使面臨市價低於貸款,只要繼續月付款,承債人不會失去什麼. 所以underwater 是一個現象,是潛在危機,不是已經喪失什麼權的既定事實. 再者5%, 是指市價低於房貸不超過5%才能獲得再融資,不是指5%的業主. 最後,套牢或面臨斷頭,適當表示出一種快被財務危機淹沒的情境, 與underwater 這個英文俗語的表達方式非常貼切
2 hrs
1、Underwater 不代表承債人喪失"贖回權(贖回什麼??)。首先要澄清的是,这个词不是指债务,而是指抵押品的价值低于原来的贷款金额。例如,A原来以X房产作价100万贷款100万,购买Y房产,现在房价下降,X房子只值50万,除非我再提供50万的抵押(可能很多人不能提供),银行就要将X房产收回。所以,我丧失了X房产的赎回权。 Underwater不是针对债务,债务关系依然存在而且不受影响,该还月供还得还,Y房产仍然是我的。
disagree Jean Chao (X) : According to Real Estate Dictionary, "underwater" is just a slang referring to a property whose debt exceeds its value.
65 days
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4 days

沦负

Such a new is inspired from a commonly used word 沦为负翁, but it has some different meaning, especially when referring to an asset.

As a new word, any Chinese speaking people can easily understand its meaning from the context.

Finally, 沦负 can visually reflect the "underwater" state.

To Karen Ho:
I really thank you for your time and patient. I know 套牢 is much more commonly used, but its definition, as you said, " hate to hold but you can't let go (sell) " can't reflect the meaning of "negatively valured". There are significant differences between 套牢 and 负资产(沦负), one of which i think is that 沦负 is objective, meanwhile 套牢 in a great deree is subjective. For exapmle, in example sentence 3, “套牢不超过 5%” is very confusing.

I still insist on my understanding of the word underwater, ie, an asset or whose aseets' liabilities go beyond its value.

Thank you again. Maybe we can be good friends. as a chinese saying said “不打不相识”.
Definition from own experience or research:
在抵押借款中,某项资产的负债超过其价值,或某人名下资产的负债超过其价值。<br />A mortgaged asset&#039;s liabilities goes beyond its value, or one&#039;s mortgaged assets&#039; liabilities go beyond their value.
Example sentences:
Housing prices have plummeted and some homeowners are severely underwater - meaning they owe more than their homes are worth. 房价暴跌,房屋业主大量“沦负”——也就是他们的欠款高于他们的房屋价值。 One in five U.S. mortgage borrowers are underwater 五分之一的美国抵押借款人“沦负”。 Obama’s plan permits refinancing only for homeowners underwater by a maximum 5 percent. Rosen recommends raising that limit to 25 percent 奥巴马的计划近允许对沦负最多5%的房屋业主提供再融资。罗森建议将这一上限提高至25%。 (新造词)
Note from asker:
Dear David, I applaud your diligence. The underwater either 沦为负翁, or 住進套房. Either way is fine with me. The only thing is that no one else uses "沦负" while "套牢" is known by millions/billions already. Personally I prefer 套牢. It very precisely describes the predicament of being underwater -- you hate to hold but you can't let go (sell). That is exactly why the phrase is so widely accepted and used formally and informally in Taiwan AND CHINA. (1) Housing prices have plummeted and some homeowners are severely underwater. 房价暴跌,房屋业主嚴重套牢. (2) One in five U.S. mortgage borrowers are underwater. 五分之一的美国房屋抵押借款人處於套牢的困境. (3) Obama’s plan permits refinancing only for homeowners underwater by a maximum 5 percent. 奥巴马的计划允许对套牢不超過5%的房屋业主提供再融資. You can google "房地產套牢" and see for yourself how many thousands of entries show up in Taiwan, HK, China publications. Here is just an example: http://house.big5.enorth.com.cn/system/2009/03/27/003940926.shtml
Hi David, We need not insist on anything. The general public understands that 套牢 means exactly that -- you owe more than you can sell the asset for -- otherwise, you wouldn't be 套牢. If you hold, you must continue mortgate payment. If you sell, you have to come up with the difference between the loan amount and the market price, to pay off the loan. You are 套牢 because the market price has fallen below the loan amount still owned. Please read this recent essay written by a fellow Chinese who defined 套牢 in excellent detail, especially in Section V (套牢过程推演). http://bbs.ifeng.com/viewthread.php?tid=3627191&extra=page%3D1### Happy Reading!!!
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+1
19 days

贬值

I try to translate two example phases:
some homeowners are severely underwater—— 一些房主的房产严重贬值;
One in five U.S. mortgage borrowers are underwater——每五个美国的按揭贷借款人就有一个的房产贬值
Definition from own experience or research:
In my opinion, &quot;somebody is underwater&quot; can be paraphased into &quot;somebody&#039;s asset is devalued and depreciated&quot;. For example, &quot;房主的房产严重/大幅贬值&quot;, when we say homeowners are severely underwater.
Example sentences:
深开发商降价加补偿 房产贬值究竟该谁承担? (hexun.com)
Note from asker:
It's hard to find a "universal" translation. In my opinion, 套牢 can be used in stocks, options, real estate, or the other mentioned situations. It could mean 市值低於貸款餘額, or 贬值, or both, or neither. In daily English, people complain, "I am so underwater in credit card debts" or "I am underwater with my bills." 被卡債"套牢", "套牢"在帳單裡 could work but none of the other proposed phrases can. UNDERWATER is a slang and its intended meaning oftentimes ambiguous. I agree with all the technical discussions below but in practice, only 套牢 is as colloquial, informal and ambiguous (or versatile, rather) as UNDERWATER. Finding the semantically (and tone) equivalent word in another language is I believe the key objective of translating, a task not necessarily aimed at defining a word legally or precisively. That is the purpose of a dictionary.
Peer comment(s):

agree Bin Tiede (X)
2 hrs
thanks
Something went wrong...
-2
4 hrs

套牢或断頭

The expressions I provided are widely used in Taiwan, and possibly the southern provinces of China, where Taiwanese businessmen are active.

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Note added at 68 days (2009-06-24 18:20:02 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

It's hard to find a "universal" translation. In my opinion, 套牢 can be used in stocks, options, real estate, or the other mentioned situations. It could mean 市值低於貸款餘額, or 贬值, or both, or neither.

In daily English, people complain, "I am so underwater in credit card debts" or "I am underwater with my bills." 被卡債"套牢", "套牢"在帳單裡 could work but none of the other proposed phrases can.

UNDERWATER is a slang and its intended meaning oftentimes ambiguous. I agree with all the technical discussions below but in practice, only 套牢 is as colloquial, informal and ambiguous (or versatile, rather) as UNDERWATER. Finding the semantically (and tone) equivalent word in another language is I believe the key objective of translating, a task not necessarily aimed at defining a word legally or precisively. That is the purpose of a dictionary.
Definition from own experience or research:
套牢是资產市價跌到購入成本以下 如果本金來自借款 当担保品市價低於貸款或融資(証券交易)額時 投資人將面臨断頭危机 即標的資产所有權將由貸方取得
Example sentences:
股價房價遽跌投資人大都面臨套牢甚至断頭危機 (general knowledge)
Note from asker:
斷頭使用在此並不適當。所謂「斷頭」,在股票,係指信用交易(融資或融券)之整體維持率低於主管機關指定之比率時,由證券商強制賣出融資或強制買入融券之行為;在期貨及選擇權,則是保證金餘額低於維持保證金時,由期貨商將部位強制平倉之行為。不論是何者,其結果都是使投資人失去原有的投資部位,而且原本的帳面虧損也因為該交易成為實際損失。underwater 在此並無喪失投資部位的意思,因此「斷頭」恐非適當翻譯。至於套牢一詞,其本意只是指投資發生虧損,恐怕無法妥當表示 underwater 使用在不動產抵押時,所要表達的「市值低於債務餘額」的意思。
Peer comment(s):

disagree David Chow
1 day 16 hrs
disagree Jean Chao (X) : According to Real Estate Dictionary, "underwater" is just a slang referring to a property whose debt exceeds its value.
67 days
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