Glossary entry (derived from question below)
English term or phrase:
chattel
Italian translation:
Bene mobile
Mar 11, 2010 16:55
14 yrs ago
14 viewers *
English term
chattel
GBK
English to Italian
Law/Patents
Law (general)
Definition from
Ameraco:
An item of personal property which is not affixed to the land or building (as opposed to a fixture, an item which is a part of the land or building). Chattels are generally not included in the sale of property unless specifically included in the Agreement of Purchase and Sale.
Example sentences:
When you rent your property out, the occupant also rents your chattel or personal property in the house which loses value because of the wear and tear from the tenants use. (chattelservice.com)
Although the average life span for depreciating chattel is 5 years, there is some personal property that has a longer life span. So, if you keep your rental property for 5 years, you would be able to depreciate the chattel off your taxes every year for 5 years. (Spectrum Chattel Service)
You might be surprised knowing the value of your chattel. While an individual piece of movable property may not be that valuable, it is quite easy to pack a home taking a substantial amount of belongings. (fairloanrate.com)
Proposed translations
(Italian)
| 5 +2 | Bene mobile |
Laura Torrisi
|
| 4 +1 | Bene mobile personale |
Oscar Romagnone
|
| 5 | bene mobile |
Claudia Pachiega
|
Change log
Mar 11, 2010 16:37: changed "Kudoz queue" from "In queue" to "Public"
Mar 11, 2010 16:55: changed "Stage" from "Preparation" to "Submission"
Mar 14, 2010 17:55: changed "Stage" from "Submission" to "Selection"
Mar 21, 2010 19:54: changed "Stage" from "Selection" to "Completion"
Proposed translations
+2
3 days 5 hrs
Laura Torrisi
Bilingual Lawyer, Italian and English
Native in: Italian 
Works in: English to Italian, Italian to English
Related KudoZ points
:
8
Selected
Bene mobile
Chattel è uno dei termini con cui viene tradotto "bene mobile". Gli altri sono: movable o movable property (contro immovable o immovable property) e personal property (contro real property).
Secondo Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_property), i beni mobili vengono chiamati chattels in common law e movables in civil law.
Fixtures, seguendo la definizione riportata nell'esempio, sono nel diritto italiano considerati beni immobili (se affixed to the land) o pertinenze, mobiliari o immobiliari, (se affixed to a building) di un bene.
Una pertinenza è infatti anche per il diritto italiano qualcosa di specifico e diverso. Per un articolo che esamina quali beni possano essere considerati pertinenze nella vendita di un appartamento vedere http://www.diritto.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=art...
Secondo Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_property), i beni mobili vengono chiamati chattels in common law e movables in civil law.
Fixtures, seguendo la definizione riportata nell'esempio, sono nel diritto italiano considerati beni immobili (se affixed to the land) o pertinenze, mobiliari o immobiliari, (se affixed to a building) di un bene.
Una pertinenza è infatti anche per il diritto italiano qualcosa di specifico e diverso. Per un articolo che esamina quali beni possano essere considerati pertinenze nella vendita di un appartamento vedere http://www.diritto.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=art...
Definition from
EUR-Lex (UE):
"per dirigere le aste pubbliche volontarie di beni mobili..." " to carry on the activity of conducting voluntary sales of chattels by public auction.."
Example sentences:
"per dirigere le aste pubbliche volontarie di beni mobili..." " to carry on the activity of conducting voluntary sales of chattels by public auction.." (EUR-Lex (UE))
"con il presente provvedimento vengono trasferiti – senza alcun onere per la regione – tutti i beni mobili (attrezzature mediche, posti letti e cosı`via) delle strutture ospedaliere di cui trattasi.)" "La Palazzina di caccia di Stupinigi, con le relative pertinenze mobiliari" (Senato)
Note from asker:
| We can push the search forward indefinitely but I think that it will be hard to find a term or locution able to satisfy everybody. As per the Law dictionary De Franchis the term “Chattel” belongs to the Common law (that doesn’t exist in Italy) and it doesn’t have a specific equivalent in the Civil law system (that is our system, here in Italy), moreover it doesn’t exist in the Common law a distinction between “beni mobili” and “beni immobili”, at least in the meaning that we are used to attribute to those term in our language, so that the simple definition of “Beni mobili” is unproposable in my opinion. De Franchis says moreover that “chattel” may include some “diritti immobiliari” as well! If you look at my two last posts into the Discussion board you will see that in both those legal sources, published as references, the term “chattel” is used in opposition of the concept of “intangible property” (that is a form of ‘bene mobile’!). If you look at all the three examples provided to us by the GBK team you’ll see that perhaps the team is not interested in establishing or arguing what is or is not a chattel in abstract but only - or especially - when it is referred to the real estate field; in all of those examples they appear terms as “house/home/rental property/rents/depreciate/depreciating/belongings/ecc.” If you check the websites dealing with real estate you’ll notice that the term “chattel” is always used in opposition to the term “fixture”, so why don’t you do the same check on the Italian websites? Why don’t you check the Italian websites in order to see in which way the operators in question are used to call the different classes of objects inside a building in case of rental contract? What do you say about the example that I had posted the first day, when I gave my answer to the GBK question, derived from ‘Assicurazione Terra’? Do you think that such definition of “beni personali” doesn’t match? [(mobili, elettrodomestici, elettronica, abbigliamento, ecc]… in case you think so can you explain the reason why? Or can you tell me why you don’t like or accept the translating term “Beni personali” given by the dictionary Fernando Picchi, Economics and Business, Zanichelli Editore in relation with “chattels”? Is it not reliable? |
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Oscar Romagnone
: Me too I disagree for the simple reason that even if all the "chattels" are "beni mobili" not all the "beni mobili" are "chattels"! The definition of 'bene mobile" is too wide compared to "chattel" and needs to be more qualified or specified. See my note.
6 hrs
|
| agree |
Nerino
9 hrs
|
| agree |
Marilina Vanuzzi
: dopo avere letto tutti i vostri interventi, voto per questa resa
6 days
|
| agree |
ARS54
: ...pieno accordo..., :)
6 days
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+1
52 mins
Oscar Romagnone
Italy
Italy
Italy
Broad experience in legal translations
Native in: Italian (Variant: Swiss ) 
Works in: English to Italian, French to Italian, Spanish to Italian, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
1236
Bene mobile personale
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Note added at 3 giorni11 ore (2010-03-15 04:21:57 GMT)
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Some sources where the term “Chattel” is defined as a “personal property” (along with ‘moveable property’):
Personal Property (Personalty): Movable property not attached to realty; chattels.
http://www.4injured.com/legal-dictionary.shtml
chattel - (n.) An item of personal property which is movable, as distinguished from real property.
http://www.laws.com/LegalDictionary.html
trespass to chattels (property that is personal and movable)
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/355898/Law-School-Outline---Tort...
Both of the main European legal traditions distinguish between property rights relating to land and those that relate to other goods. “Immovable” property rights in the civil law tradition and “real” property rights (or “realty”) in the common law tradition that relate to land **are distinguished from “movable” or “personal” property, sometimes described as “chattels”**.[31] As will be seen below, many ongoing reforms currently seek to promote the concept of private property rights, specifically rights of land ownership. But while important, ownership is not the only type of land tenure right.
http://www.fao.org/docrep/007/y5692e/y5692e03.htm
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Source where the definition of the term “Chattel” refers even to “immoveable property”!!
CHATTELS Goods or every purchase of property movable **or immoveable** which are not real property.
http://www.aerlandrealty.com/glossary.asp
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Source where the term “Chattel” is defined not only “moveable/personal” but even “tangible”:
Traditional legal theory divided property into two classes: immoveable (or “real”) property involving landed interests; and moveable (or “personal”) property. **Moveable property was further divided in tangible property (chattels)** and intangible property (contract rights and IP). One may argue that in the modern world, at least de facto if not de jure, there are now three distinct classes of property – immoveable, tangible moveable, and pure intangible – but statutes drafted in earlier times do not say so explicitly30
http://www.wipo.int/edocs/mdocs/copyright/en/wipo_ip_fin_ge_...
Chattels. **Items of tangible** personal property which
are moveable, such as machinery & equipment (moveable),
office furniture, and computers. Chattels do not
include real estate or items permanently attached to
real estate.
http://library.state.or.us/repository/2008/200806231343181/
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Some examples related to the “EU terminology” concerning the translation of “personal property” and not referring to any dissolution of marriage!
Importazione definitiva di **beni personali**
Tax-free allowances: permanent imports of **personal property**
Personal property means:
property for the personal use of the persons concerned or the needs of their household;
instruments necessary to the person concerned for the exercise of his trade or profession.
http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/taxation/l31032_it.ht...
and Council Directive 83/183/EEC on tax exemptions applicable to permanent imports from a Member State of the **personal property of individuals** (2) do not reflect the present needs concerning free circulation of persons and of goods;
e della direttiva 83/183/CEE del Consiglio (2), relativa alle franchigie fiscali applicabili alle importazioni definitive di **beni personali di privati** provenienti da uno Stato membro, non rispecchiano le esigenze attuali in materia di libera circolazione delle persone e delle merci;
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/Notice.do?mode=dbl&lang=en&ihmlang=...
A dictionnary:
personal property
(Law) beni mpl personali
http://dizionario.reverso.net/inglese-italiano/personal prop...
____________________________________________________
Finally,
my question n. 1:
Why can I find on line a lot of websites reporting the following locution: "chattel, money or securities "?
http://www.google.it/search?hl=it&rlz=1R2GCNV_it&q="chattel,...
My answer:
Simple, because ‘money’ or ‘securities’ are not ‘chattels’ (Chattel has to be tangible).
Check Converted
Money is not a chattel, so it cannot be subject to conversion, but a check can.
http://www.mobar.org/data/esq09/oct30/cases.htm
My question n. 2:
Does the Italian term “Bene mobile” include the concept of ‘money’ and ‘securities’?
Yes, of course.
My question n. 3:
Why should we consider for a glossary a term like “Bene mobile”, whose semantic area is wider than the source term’s one, as the equivalent of “Chattel”, whose semantic area is more restricted?
Definition from
Dizionario Fernando Picchi - Zanichelli :
Qualsiasi tipo di beni mobili che possono essere trasferiti mediante semplice consegna. Vi rientrano, pertanto, tutti gli oggetti personali e di arredamento e quanto altro non sia soggetto a registrazione, mentre non vi rientrano assolutamente i terreni, i fabbricati e simili.
Example sentences:
I vostri beni personali – La compagnia di assicurazione pagherà per sostituire i tuoi beni personali (mobili, elettrodomestici, elettronica, abbigliamento, ecc), quando è stato danneggiato da atti vandalici, incendi, fughe di notizie idraulici, fulmini, congelati i tubi, o atti di natura. Alcune politiche di limitare la quantità di copertura, quindi se hai oggetti costosi come gioielli, pezzi d’antiquariato, o ad alta dollaro televisori o computer, potreste voler aumentare la copertura. (Assicurazione Terra)
Note from asker:
| Tangible: also under Italian law there is a further distinction between tangible and intangible movables (beni mobili materiali e immateriali), so we may argue whether to add "materiali" (instead of "personali"); however, by saying beni mobili one generally refers to tangible ones, not much to IP. According to businessdictionary.com, chattel personal is defined as inclusing both tangible goods (such as furniture, jewelry, movable machinery) and intangible rights (such as copyright and patents) belonging to a person, just like beni mobili does. Personal property: I think the word 'personale' should be used when it is necessary to state that something belongs to only the husband or wife (see notary's model deed for the purchase of a "bene mobile personale") or that something is to be considered as private property travelling with the owner as opposed to goods for sale being shipped, as in you example. Money: I have actually found pages on the Internet that state that money is a chattel personal (" the term chattel personal is employed to designate movables such as goods and money, and chattel real to designate ..." www.answers.com/topic/chattel; "CHATTELS PERSONAL, otherwise called THINGS PERSONAL, comprise all sorts of things movable, as good, plate, money, jewels, implements of war, ..." wigwags.wordpress.com/2008/11/16/on-slavery-6-chattels-personal/) but agree that we could research this further. |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Janet Angelini
: Yes
3 days 26 mins
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Hi Janet et many thanks!
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| disagree |
Laura Torrisi
: Sarei stata d'accordo senza la parola "personale". In italiano è sufficiente dire bene mobile, il personale è in più. Poi potrebbe creare confusione perchè di bene mobile personale si parla a proposito della comunione dei beni trai coniugi (art. 179 c.c.)
3 days 3 hrs
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Non sono d'accordo, in italiano *non* è sufficiente dire soltanto "bene mobile". Vedi la mia nota aggiuntiva. Che cosa ti fa pensare che il termine "chattel" non possa o non debba avere a che fare (anche...se capita) con le cause matrimoniali?
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| agree |
Barbara Micheletto
: sono d'accordo, anche in ita si parla di "beni mobili personali" per distinguerli da quelli detenuti in comunione con il coniuge; è pertinente soprattutto in materia testamentaria ("I give all my personal chattels...")
10 days
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Molte grazie Barbara e buona serata! Inserirò una nota aggiuntiva nella discussion board più tardi o domani...
|
3 days 23 hrs
Claudia Pachiega
Never sacrifice quality to make numbers
Native in: Italian
Works in: English to Italian, Italian to English, German to Italian, and 1 more.
bene mobile
Definition from
own experience or research:
Chattel: bene mobile. West's Law&Commercial Dictionary - Zanichelli/West.<br />"Sono mobili i beni che non sono qualificabili immobili (v. 812.3 cc). I trasferimenti di beni mobili non sono soggetti né ad alcuna forma vincolata, né a trascrizione. Solo nei confronti dei beni mobili vale la regola <possesso di buona fede vale titolo>. Inoltre, solo i beni mobili possono costituire oggetto di pegno"" Lessico di diritto civile, Giuffré edit.; <br />"I beni mobili, a differenza degli immobili, possono circolare con grande rapidità, senza forme particolari, si possono usucapire in minor tempo, il loro semplice possesso, accompagnato da un titolo idoneo al trasferimento della proprietà e dalla buona fede, ne comporta l'acquisto in proprietà (...). Enciclopedia Garzanti del Diritto.
Example sentences:
" (...) tornare a parlare di Michael jackson. Questa volta la notizia riguarda i suoi beni, mobili e cimeli di lusso che verranno posti all'asta (...)" (WebDeLuxe The Style Magazine)
"La corretta contabilizzazione dei macchinari (...) per l'eventuale determinazione dell'agevolazione Tremonti-ter(...). Per i beni mobili acquistati, si considera la data di consegna o di spedizione (...)" (Eurogroup)
"Le aste giudiziarie relative ai beni mobili oggetto di esecuzione o di procedura fallimentare si tengono regolarmente presso le nostre sale vendita (...)" (Istituto Vendite Giudiziarie)
Discussion
I do not agree that the team is especially looking to find what chattels are called in the real estate field. I think they want a translation to chattel and that when they post a definition that says "An item of personal property which is not affixed to the land or building (as opposed to a fixture, an item which is a part of the land or building)" they are not referring to real estate, but to the opposite pairs of chattel/land, personal property/real property, that is to beni mobili vs immobili. Plus, chattel is a legal term and I believe it should be translated with a legal term, whereas "personali" is not a legal category
(a) money, a cheque, a bank draft, a deposit, interest, a dividend and income,
(b) a credit balance, a customer overpayment, a gift certificate, a security deposit, a refund, a credit memo, an unpaid wage and an unused airline ticket,
(c) a share or any other intangible ownership interest in a business organization,
(d) money deposited to redeem a share, a bond, a coupon or other security, or to make a distribution,
(e) an amount due and payable by the insurer under the terms of an insurance policy, and
(f) an amount distributable from a trust or custodial fund established under a plan to provide education, health, welfare, vacation, severance, retirement, death, share purchase, profit sharing, employee savings, supplemental unemployment insurance or a similar benefit; (“bien immatériel”)
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_stat...
“Tangible” means it is a physical object, such as the watercolour painting I gave my wife and not an “intangible” asset such as a share in a company. Some assets are a mixture of a chattel and an intangible asset – a “cherished number plate” for a car is partly a chattel (the actual piece of metal or plastic with “JB 1” or whatever on it), but the majority of its value lies in the (intangible) right to use it as your car’s number plate.
“Moveable” means you can move it. It does not need to be easy to move, like a painting – our sofa is a chattel, but I nearly killed myself manhandling it into the house. Basically, if you can move it without demolishing it, it is probably a chattel. A building which is fixed to the ground is not a chattel but a tent is.
Common examples of chattels are:
paintings,
sculptures,
antiques,
furniture,
jewellery,
books,
models and toys,
clocks,
and so on.
http://www.taxinsider.co.uk/The_Tax_Free_Antiques_Road_show_...