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Дирекция информационных технологий Технического блока
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Glossary entry

Russian term or phrase:

командный и начальствующий состав (extensive question)

English translation:

Command and administrative staff

Added to glossary by sparta1978
Dec 27, 2012 19:46
11 yrs ago
2 viewers *
Russian term

командный и начальствующий состав (extensive question)

Russian to English Other Military / Defense military ranks
я думаю это интересная тема и хотел бы получить серия званий в красной армии до 1943 года.

я этой темой занимаюсь и здесь помещю интересные ссылки на несколько первоисточников. пожалуйста посмотрите ссылки до того как отвечать.

красноармеец
ефрейтор
сержант (младший, старший)
старшина
лейтенант (младший, старший)

младший комсостав
командный и начальствующий состав
начальвствующий состав

приказ о званиях
http://bdsa.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=228...

из приказа:
1. Военнослужащие Рабоче-Крестьянской Красной Армии, имеющие соответствующую военную или специальную подготовку и ведущие работу по руководству войсковыми соединениями, частями и подразделениями, по военному обучению и военно-политическому воспитанию, и выполняющие другую руководящую работу в рядах армии, делятся на командный состав и начальствующий состав РККА.

2. К командному составу РККА относятся военнослужащие, командующие войсковыми подразделениями, частями, соединениями и занимающие в частях и учреждениях РККА должности, для исполнения которых необходим обязательный командный стаж и наличие соответствующей военной подготовки.

3. К начальствующему составу РККА относятся:

а) военно-политический состав;
б) военно-технический состав;
в) военно-хозяйственный и административный состав;
г) военно-медицинский состав;
д) военно-ветеринарный состав;
е) военно-юридический состав.


wiki званий (тут и про кто входит в какой состав)
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Воинские_звания_и_знаки_различи...
Proposed translations (English)
4 +3 Command and administrative staff
5 commanders and officer corps (officer ranks)
4 combat/line and auxiliary/support unit command

Discussion

Pham Xuan Thanh Dec 31, 2012:
начальствующий состав - senior officers: This group consists of officers holding the ranks of Lieutenant Colonel, Colonel, Brigadier General, Major General, Lieutenant General and General
Ocean122 Dec 28, 2012:
I though likewise, but then found this one - http://books.google.com/books?id=rgkSxFpKmIsC&pg=PA33&lpg=PA...
What one man (John Erickson) can use, another can use, I guess.
The Misha Dec 28, 2012:
@ GaryG In the standard Russian organizational chart, a platoon commander in a combat unit would definitely be a one small star Lieutenant JG that would qualify as "command personnel" or "mladshiy komsostav". To be sure, their life expectancy was even worse than that of those second lieutenants in Vietnam, so quite often a sergeant, or even a corporal would end up commanding a platoon or a company until the unit, or whatever was left of it, would be pulled of the front line or simple perish to the last man. Adding "senior" as you suggest doesn't seem to help since an LT JG in a support unit is no more senior than the same JG in a combat unit or a voyentekhnik of a corresponding rank. Interestingly, they got rid of that double designation system once and for all shortly after the war. Of course, you guys can do whatever you want here, but none of those support personnel belong in the administration. You can call them specialists, I guess, but to me this has such a strong US feel that I wouldn't even do that unless we were taking specifically about voyentechniks.
GaryG Dec 28, 2012:
начальствующий here clearly refers to senior officials whose title is начальник. They do not have operational command of troops like командиры/командующие.
Ilya Prishchepov Dec 27, 2012:
Soviet system was really complicated. "Commissars" were representatives of the ruling clique and overseeing the commanding officers being in strict observation of the communist religion and directives of the ruling clique. Those were "political" officers. NKVD were the henchmen and hold the positions with machine guns shooting in the backs of those on the front line. Those, I guess, would be military justice system. Can we call them "administrative"? Bronstein's "baby" was really atrocious and weird, with no analogue in other armies, I guess. The words "начальник" и "начальство" by itself had a very special meaning in this communistic mayhem. As soon as we can properly find an equivalent to these two in English, THEN we would be able to apply it to "personnel" of any kind.

Proposed translations

+3
3 mins
Selected

Command and administrative staff

That is, those who have operational command of troops and those who perform administrative functions
Note from asker:
i think this is a very strong contender now. the biggest reason is it allows for branching to the all the subcategories that call under administrative(nachalstvu'ushiy) sostav. Thanks for suggesting a wide range of options. It helps a lot
note to "the misha" cooks and mechanics would not be included, as this applies only to higher ranks that are in charge of cooks and mechanics.
Peer comment(s):
agree Jack Doughty
30 mins
neutral The Misha : I don't think it would be right to use "administrative" with respect to auxiliary and support personnel. By that token, aircraft mechanics, cooks, military doctors, etc. would be administrative personnel. They are not.
1 hr
I'd call them specialists but it occurred to me by the same token a platoon commander counts as "command perosnnel". What about adding "senior" in front of the term I suggested?
agree Ocean122 : Yes, for lack of a better term. Maybe military-administrative staff
10 hrs
agree cyhul
3 days 14 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks to all that participated. some meaningful word combinations came up."
1 hr

combat/line and auxiliary/support unit command

As much as it may be difficult to find exact equivalents here, I think this is what it boils down to in the end. Most of the support units have nothing to do whatsoever with administration. A pisar belongs in the administration, as does the nachfin (financial officer; I should know, my own grandpa, God bless his soul, was one) A mechanic or a doctor does not.
Something went wrong...
3 days 9 hrs

commanders and officer corps (officer ranks)

Commanders:
commanding officer: an officer in command of a military unit;

Officer corps:
a member of the armed force who holds a position of authority. ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Officer_corps

Officer rank(s):
a member of the armed force who holds a position of authority.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Officer_rank

начальствующий состав - senior officers:
This group consists of officers holding the ranks of Lieutenant Colonel, Colonel, Brigadier General, Major General, Lieutenant General and General.
Something went wrong...
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