| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Client dispute in Switzerland Thread poster: Dan Lucas
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Dan Lucas 
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:05
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
To my considerable surprise, I am in a situation where I may be in dispute with an agency based in Switzerland. Obviously what follows has been anonymized. I submitted a large-ish (30k-character) job to this agency last week, which was only the second I have ever done for them. The previous one was finished with no complaints whatsoever, despite being a rush job over the weekend, if I remember correctly.
This most recent job has been very different. They checked it (taking several d... See more To my considerable surprise, I am in a situation where I may be in dispute with an agency based in Switzerland. Obviously what follows has been anonymized. I submitted a large-ish (30k-character) job to this agency last week, which was only the second I have ever done for them. The previous one was finished with no complaints whatsoever, despite being a rush job over the weekend, if I remember correctly.
This most recent job has been very different. They checked it (taking several days in the process), pointed out several small speech recognition "typos", and made a number of other claims, most of which were spurious (objecting to English they did not understand, wanting me to explain aspects of Japanese culture referred to in the document, suggesting alternatives for established translations for certain Japanese expressions despite not understanding Japanese, etc.). I promptly apologized for and corrected the typos, made a couple of other changes, pointed out that the other objections were invalid with references to various sources, and resubmitted.
None of the specific points I raised in my first email were addressed, but the agency has come back and said that the work "does not meet our expectations". They say that the quality has to be "perfect" and yet they do perform checks, so presumably they are aware that some errors may creep through and that checking is therefore necessary. No standard for "perfect" was established beforehand.
They also asked me right at the point of the initial inquiry whether I could not cut my rate because "the end client just wants to understand the documents". The implication was that there was some room to "adjust" quality if I could cut my rate. I did not accept this and they have since mentioned in passing that my rate is "too high".
In a follow-up email they today invited me, based on the argument that my work was of poor quality, to give them a "proposal" - effectively suggesting I offer them a discount.
Given that they use no objective benchmark for quality (my suggestion of SAE J2450 was ignored), that the number and type of minor errors they picked up had no material effect on the meaning and seem to me typical for this size and complexity of document, that many of the errors they purportedly found were simply not errors, and that the OCR on one of the documents was so appalling that I effectively had to translate it without a CAT tool (foolishly - I should have packed up at that point), I am not minded to give them a discount at all.
I have told them that I will be invoicing them for the full amount. In fact, I consider trust to be pretty irrevocably broken at this point. Which is odd, as we've always been polite and professional in the past. (They have made inquiries about several jobs in the past but I am usually too busy to be able to help out.)
From my perspective the time is a sunk cost and I assume that I will struggle to get my money. Money is always useful but this is more of a matter of principle. I do not think they are acting in good faith, I think the decision they are attempting to impose is arbitrary and unfair, I suspect they always intended to use this it as an excuse to cut the invoice to the level they originally wanted, and I don't intend to allow myself to be stiffed by an agency without fighting back. At the same time I'm aware that I'm a fairly aggressive individual and I do not want to go overboard.
Whatever happens, I will be getting on with work, as I have another pressing deadline and then a fair few projects lined up for the second half of the month. I can survive without the money.
So, ProZ.com hive mind, what are your thoughts on next steps?
European payment order if they don't pay?
Tell them immediately they cannot use the translation unless they commit to paying?
I am reluctant to invoke nuclear options like contacting the end client (a household name), as it is unfair on the end client, but that is also a possibility. It is also a fact that the end client has a good deal in its sustainability report about the SDGs and fairness in the supply chain. Yes, well, that would be me. I am the supply chain.
Regards,
Dan
[Edited at 2024-10-09 06:16 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Dan Lucas wrote:
So, ProZ.com mind, what are your thoughts on next steps?
European payment order if they don't pay?
Tell them immediately they cannot use the translation unless they commit to paying?
I am reluctant to invoke nuclear options like contacting the end client (a household name), as it is unfair on the end client, but that is also a possibility. It is also a fact that the end client has a good deal in its sustainability report about the SDGs and fairness in the supply chain. Yes, well, that would be me. I am the supply chain.
What a nightmare. Even though you'll survive without the money, it's not a reason for letting them get away with this. They sound like psychos.
As far as I'm aware, European payment orders do not apply in Switzerland, so any legal steps would presumably have to be Swiss.
The other options look good to me, including telling the end client directly that they can't use it until it’s been paid. I don't think this would be unfair. They are not the victim here; you are.
Before you do this, I would give the agency an ultimatum to pay within something like five days, telling them they can't use it and that the end client will be informed about their breach of contract and that they cannot use it either. The agency could lose the client over this. You also need to tell them that litigation will follow, which is likely to end up being a lot more expensive for them. Also try to communicate directly with the CEO.
They surely know that many people would try to avoid conflict, hoping you’ll back down, so I would not show any sign of weakness or lenience.
The threat of using the 'nuclear option' did in fact work for me once with a troublesome US agency. It was a minor amount, but they had ignored all reminders until they got the 'nuclear' one. Firmness from the start can save legal expenses later.
I would not hold back.
Unfortunately, you can't report them in the Blue Board because there has been a quality complaint, no matter how insignificant. But you can report it on https://www.paymentpractices.net/ if you're a member ($20/year).
Let's know how it goes.
| | | | | Main question - what's your objective? | Oct 8, 2024 |
Act accordingly.
That's the short answer.
Any advice you get will thus be conditioned by what other people's goals would be, or what they assume yours are. (Admitedly some folk might not consciously realise this, in dispensing their advice. And I'm disregarding those who give advice they'd never follow themselves.)
If you want to create trouble for the agency, contact the end client.
If you want your money, send your invoice.
And so on ... See more Act accordingly.
That's the short answer.
Any advice you get will thus be conditioned by what other people's goals would be, or what they assume yours are. (Admitedly some folk might not consciously realise this, in dispensing their advice. And I'm disregarding those who give advice they'd never follow themselves.)
If you want to create trouble for the agency, contact the end client.
If you want your money, send your invoice.
And so on
Me? I'd send the invoice, perhaps with a reminder that while credit makes the business world go round, use of product/service not yet paid for is permitted on the understanding it will be paid eventually. In the event of non-payment, that permission can be revoked (to use a generic term - there is of course much case law on what happens when things aren't paid for but are already consumed and 'revoking' is not straightforward). Is that enough of a hint that you're willing to go to the end-client subsequently if need be?
My assumption is they don't want to work with you again either.
If you've got any inkling of what their (other) objectives might be (avoid paying you at all? ruin your career? quick resolution and move on?), can you align with them and get it resolved quickly?
Indeed, is there any mileage in being blunt, and just asking them what their objective is here? Such a question might perhaps give them pause (if only because, in my experience, so many people don't really know why they're pursuing a given course of action.... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:05
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
TOPIC STARTER | Previous transaction was fine | Oct 9, 2024 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
What a nightmare. Even though you'll survive without the money, it's not a reason for letting them get away with this. They sound like psychos.
It has been unexpected and very unwelcome, particularly at a busy time. It was a real distraction yesterday.
No, the funny thing is, I don't think they're psychos at all. Every member of staff with whom I have communicated has been polite and nominally professional. As I recall, they paid the first project on time and there were no supposed "quality" issues, so there were no obvious red flags. Having said that, the tone of the person with whom I am dealing is fairly forceful, and she is pushing me. There's a vaguely bullying/railroading nuance to her messages - she ignores the issues I raise and just insists on her point of view.
Basically, I think she has gotten herself annoyed with me and is now trying to extort a discount to enable her to make a little bit of profit on the transaction and obtain a little satisfaction. She thinks she can bulldoze me. I have yet to be convinced.
Just in general, I don't think they have thought this through. All it would take would be a single phone call by myself to the Tokyo office of the end client asking to speak to their legal department, explaining the situation, and revoking the right of use for the translation. Given the sensitive nature of the documents this would cause consternation, the word would go back to the headquarters in Switzerland, and all hell would break loose for the agency. Is that worth a few hundred euro? Maybe she does this frequently and has found that most freelancers surrender and thus thinks this is a no-risk tactic for her?
Meanwhile, the orders continue to flow in as usual from my Japanese clients, all of whom are significantly larger in every sense than this little agency.
Regards,
Dan
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Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:05
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
TOPIC STARTER | Get paid, not be taken advantage of | Oct 9, 2024 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
Act accordingly.
Sensible comments, Charlie, thank you.
My objective is to get paid and to preserve my sense of self as a person who does not allow other people to take unfair advantage of me. At the same time I don't want to chase something to the point that the stress involved outweighs all other factors.
(It is so unusual for me to have an issue with a client that this actually prevented me from getting to sleep last night, which is why I posted at such an odd time.)
I have no interest in inflicting damage on them, I just want us to go our separate ways. I will not be dealing with them again unless they pay in advance, and - to anticipate your question below - I don't think they will be interested in dealing with me again.
If you've got any inkling of what their (other) objectives might be (avoid paying you at all? ruin your career? quick resolution and move on?), can you align with them and get it resolved quickly?
I think their objective is simply to squeeze a price cut out of me. I have not worked with them often enough to work out what is going on, but it may be that their standard modus operandi with their freelancers is to insist on a level of quality that is in effect impossible to achieve (as it is determined by subjective factors rather than objective benchmarks) and then demand cuts to the invoice.
I quite like the idea of just asking her, but she has been so evasive with the concrete issues that I have already raised that I don't have any hope that she would give me a straight answer.
The point about revocation of the right of use is a sensible one, thank you. I think I shall add a large and visible note to the invoice to that effect. Ironically, the job itself includes a mention of transfer of control, and the timing at which it takes place...
Regards,
Dan
| | | | TargamaT team
France
Local time: 22:05
Member (2010)
English to Arabic
+ ...
| Ask the Swiss embassy in UK | Oct 9, 2024 |
If the issue is not resolved, you can call the Swiss embassy in UK, they will tell you what to do if a client would not pay you.
In Switzerland, we have a dedicated government organisation that deal with such non-payment.
| | | | ibz
Local time: 22:05
English to German
+ ...
| Don't give up | Oct 9, 2024 |
Don't give up on your money!
We have a special, quite straight-forward procedure in Switzerland to collect debts. FYI, check this link https://debtcollection.easygov.swiss/
Hope that helps!
| | | | | 'If you want peace, prepare for war' | Oct 9, 2024 |
Dan Lucas wrote:
My objective is to get paid and to preserve my sense of self as a person who does not allow other people to take unfair advantage of me. At the same time I don't want to chase something to the point that the stress involved outweighs all other factors.
All it would take would be a single phone call by myself to the Tokyo office of the end client asking to speak to their legal department, explaining the situation, and revoking the right of use for the translation. Given the sensitive nature of the documents this would cause consternation, the word would go back to the headquarters in Switzerland, and all hell would break loose for the agency. Is that worth a few hundred euro?
I would do the same.
In my view, the best way to avoid a tiresome legal process is to tell the agency CEO exactly what you're going to do (phone call to Japan or whatever, followed by a lawsuit) and what the consequences for them are likely to be.
They need to be convinced that you will follow through and drag them through hell on earth. At that point, they will probably pay the agreed amount.
The point is not to harm the agency but convince them that you will if they don't pay. It's like poker. That's why you cannot be seen to waver.
I've run into a couple of tedious late-paying clients a couple of times in my translation career, but I've always ended up being paid without litigation – once after giving them the 'nuclear' ultimatum.
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| Send invoice :) | Oct 9, 2024 |
Dan Lucas wrote:
My objective is to get paid
Well, the first step there is to send the invoice I would say for the full amount, if only because it might provoke a response in terms of any expectations of discounts they might have.
Dan Lucas wrote:
I quite like the idea of just asking her, but she has been so evasive with the concrete issues that I have already raised that I don't have any hope that she would give me a straight answer.
I might still ask her anyway, because then the paper trail (as it were) will show you were at least interested in being accommodating, which might come in handy.
If you do end up having to chase the debt using the methods other people have helpfully suggested, you'll want to look like the good guy (which you are, obvs!)
I'm starting to think that in your shoes, I might even spell it out - I'd like to try to meet your expectations or requirements, but for that, I need to know what they are - kind of thing.
But obviously we all differ in our approaches.
Plus if you ask, you will know for certain whether she will answer or not, in contrast to just supposing that she won't, no matter how good your grounds are for thinking that.
Good luck!
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Charlie Bavington wrote:
I might still ask her anyway, because then the paper trail (as it were) will show you were at least interested in being accommodating, which might come in handy.
If you do end up having to chase the debt using the methods other people have helpfully suggested, you'll want to look like the good guy
I can follow your reasoning. Indeed, many of us are brought up to seek compromises and 'be nice'.
But some unscrupulous people cunningly take advantage of such 'weak' attitudes.
If Dan follows your advice, it could weaken his efforts to convince them that he will follow through.
If money due is not paid, I don't care about looking like the 'good guy'. I want my money. End of.
If I don't pay my utility bill, it's unlikely that the utility company will try to negotiate a compromise or worry about being seen as the 'good guy'. They'll send in the gorillas if you don't pay. So should we. We're running businesses, not talking shops.
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.... and given I am a cautious person by nature
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
Dan Lucas wrote:
All it would take would be a single phone call by myself to the Tokyo office of the end client asking to speak to their legal department, explaining the situation....
I would do the same.
.... and what the consequences for them are likely to be.
For me, "likely" isn't good enough.
What actually are the consequences? How certain am I of those consequences?
Do they align with my own objectives? What do I get?
Could there be any unintended consequences, especially for me?
I note the pithy saying in the post title. I'd add a less pithy one I heard years ago (there probably is a pithy version, but I don't remember it, just the gist):
Any plan you make that relies on other people's reactions isn't a plan, it's just a hope.
In other words, unless you are confident that you know exactly how the Japanese company will respond to the agency, this is a step to approach with caution, I feel.
| | | | | Nipping in the bud | Oct 9, 2024 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
If I don't pay my utility bill,
The whole environment around consumer contracts and transactions is entirely different, as I think we both know. Any such parallels and analogies are pointless.
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Charlie Bavington wrote:
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
If I don't pay my utility bill,
The whole environment around consumer contracts and transactions is entirely different, as I think we both know. Any such parallels and analogies are pointless.
No, I don't know that. It's just a rhetorical trick to use 'as we all know'😊
Money is due. Money must be paid. Measures must be taken if money is not paid.
Anyway, you have stated your considerations and I mine, and they are likely (although this statement cannot be proved) to remain different, so further debate would seem pointless. Dan can choose what he prefers.
| | | | | That was a secondary point | Oct 9, 2024 |
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
Charlie Bavington wrote:
I might still ask her anyway, because then the paper trail (as it were) will show you were at least interested in being accommodating, which might come in handy.
If you do end up having to chase the debt using the methods other people have helpfully suggested, you'll want to look like the good guy
I can follow your reasoning. Indeed, many of us are brought up to seek compromises and 'be nice'.
But some unscrupulous people cunningly take advantage of such 'weak' attitudes.
Those are secondary considerations. Part of the issue is that Dan is unsure how to respond, and part of the reason for that is that he is unsure of what the agency actually wants. This happens a lot in all areas of life. My main point is that if you want to know what someone wants, don't try to guess, just ask them
The stuff about looking obliging is just a side-effect (one I happen to think is worthwhile). The key point is to endeavour to find out what you need to know.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:05
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
TOPIC STARTER
As one might expect of two old lags seasoned veterans like Charlie and Thomas, both have made some excellent points. Thank you for those, I shall continue to ponder.
Just FYI, I wrote a long email to this person yesterday evening, detailing her refusal to quantify her issues or engage in any of the points I had made, and making my views very clear. Although my language was polite she will hav... See more As one might expect of two old lags seasoned veterans like Charlie and Thomas, both have made some excellent points. Thank you for those, I shall continue to ponder.
Just FYI, I wrote a long email to this person yesterday evening, detailing her refusal to quantify her issues or engage in any of the points I had made, and making my views very clear. Although my language was polite she will have been left in no doubt that I am not happy.
However, at the end of the email I did make her an offer to the effect that I would address any specific issues that she had, provided that they were limited in scope and objective (rather than subjective) in nature. In other words, I was prepared to help her submit the project to the end client, provided I did not get mired in endless edits. [EDIT: just to clarify, as far as I could see the document was ready to go after I finished making the initial revisions.]
I still think that was reasonable. Maybe she will throw it back in my face, maybe not. I suspect she will just ignore it, because in her mind the mere fact that there were initial points to revise outweighs all else. There can be no compromise if there are any errors, seems to be her attitude.
At this point I'm thinking she will simply come back to me and say "We're not going to use the translation because the quality is too poor, and therefore we don't owe you anything."
One response to that might be that I cannot know whether the translation has been used or not and therefore I would have to contact the end client to confirm. Then of course there are the legal recourses that TargamaT team and ibz have kindly mentioned.
I shall keep you all informed.
Incidentally, several persons with exposure to Swiss clients have contacted me privately to ask the identity of this agency. I can understand that completely and I would probably have done the same in their case, but I am under NDA so cannot respond. If the client breaches their side of the agreement then all bets are off and I will publicize their unacceptable behavior as widely as I can - Blue Board (if feasible), paymentpractices.net, the Unacceptable Translation Rates Naming & Shaming Group on Facebook, and so on.
Regards,
Dan
[Edited at 2024-10-09 11:49 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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