Shall Client/ Outsourcer request references? Thread poster: Mohamed Mahmoud
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Mohamed Mahmoud 
Egypt
Local time: 21:51
Member (2011)
English to Arabic
+ ...
Hello Dear Colleges
Recently, I have a contract with a major publishing house. We have assurance quality team who requested that applicant shall present two or three references so as to have the ability to verify the efficiency and commitment of applicant before contracting with them.
In breif, One of the applicant sent me very harsh e mail considering that such request of refrences is very bizarre.
In fact, I do not have the procedure in such cas... See more Hello Dear Colleges
Recently, I have a contract with a major publishing house. We have assurance quality team who requested that applicant shall present two or three references so as to have the ability to verify the efficiency and commitment of applicant before contracting with them.
In breif, One of the applicant sent me very harsh e mail considering that such request of refrences is very bizarre.
In fact, I do not have the procedure in such cases.
Shall Clinet/ Outsoucer require references?
kindly share me your experiences and opinions.
Thanks in Advance
Yours
Mohamed ▲ Collapse
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Client/outsources is entitled to ask for portfolio, test, credentials etc. But they are in no way entitled to ask for references. There are several reasons:
1) Usually we are bound by NDA. Full stop.
2) It is quite challenging to get good direct clients, everybody knows that. And because outsourcer is de facto also our potential competitor, asking us to provide contacts to *our clients* seems more like scamming than like internal QA procedure
3) There are many other, non... See more Client/outsources is entitled to ask for portfolio, test, credentials etc. But they are in no way entitled to ask for references. There are several reasons:
1) Usually we are bound by NDA. Full stop.
2) It is quite challenging to get good direct clients, everybody knows that. And because outsourcer is de facto also our potential competitor, asking us to provide contacts to *our clients* seems more like scamming than like internal QA procedure
3) There are many other, non-invasive ways of determining if the service provider (note: "service provider", not "job applicant") is suitable for the project. Credentials, portfolio, online research, even free or paid tests. Any outsourcer should make sure that the service provider suits *their* specific needs, but in no way they are entitled to put this burden on shoulders of previous clients of this service provider.
4) In this business, service provider and outsourcer should have the same rights. If you are not willing to provide YOUR references, do not ever ask somebody else to provide THEIRS
There are many other reasons, but I think that these are the major ones. As soon any agency asks me to provide references instead of portfolio, they go to my blacklist. Maybe I am wrong, but for me it means disrespect to translators' rights, attempt to breach their privacy and jeopardizing on their clients. I do not want to work with agencies who do not respect their service providers.
One example for all:
Once I was contacted by one agency (note: they contacted me), they wanted me to work on one of their projects. We have agreed all terms, including rates etc. Then the PM asked me to "provide three references, they are needed in our system to setup your account". OK, I gave them three company names, whose translations I have in my public porfolio. "Uhm... I need names and mails. Otherwise we cannot give you this project." I am sorry, but... what? You asked me to cooperate with you on certain project that fits my specialization, I have passed your free test, but you cannot give me the project unless I breach the NDA and give you access to my direct clients? OK, good bye, I never want to hear from you again. (well, I did not use these words, obviously ).
After one week, the PM changed his mind and said that they can make an exception in my case, no references are needed. "Well, it does not matter, I do not want to cooperate with you, it seems that your attitude to your service providers is different than I find suitable. I do not think you will treat me with dignity." After one month, they sent me the project anyway. I asked them to delete me from their database, as I do not want to be bothered with them. And one more month later, I got the same job from different agency, which was always number 1 for me (with rush surcharge ).
So when dealing with new or potential service providers, keep in mind that they are the same professionals as you are, they run their own businesses and that you need them the same way as they need you... and maybe more. Especially some big players tend to think that they "own" the translators - which is totally wrong. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mohamed Mahmoud
Egypt
Local time: 21:51
Member (2011)
English to Arabic
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Great Advices | Sep 11, 2012 |
Thanks a lot dear college
In fact, you have a clear argument that persuaded me.
Thanks a lot to the most.
Best Wishes
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 19:51
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| I'd quite like to know about your clients, too :-) | Sep 11, 2012 |
I'm not sure I fully understand the situation, Mohamed, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm assuming you are acting as a translation agency on this contract, with the publishing house as your client, and outsourcing the translation work to freelancers. You are requesting that each translator provide names and email addreses of three of their previous/existing clients. You were surprised to receive at least one refusal. However, I don't understand what you mean by
In fact, I do not have the procedure in such cases.
Shall Clinet/ Outsoucer require references?
Whatever you mean by that, I agree with Pavel that it is totally inappropriate for freelancers to be asked, by agencies, to provide references. It is normal practice for potential employers to ask for references from job applicants. In that case, there is a heirarchical relationship and references are only sought very occasionally, when an employee changes company.
However, the outsourcer/freelancer relationship is entirely different. There is no boss/employee relationship: we are business partners. You have your clients, we have our clients. If you do not share your client list, why should we share ours? In fact, I refuse to give my clients' details even when the relationship is not covered by an NDA. I enter into new agreements with new outsourcers on a regular basis - should I subject my previous clients to receiving messages in their inbox several times a month, asking questions about my services? If I work with you on one short job, do you want to have to write tens of references afterwards? It seems to be a practice that is sure to guarantee that a previous client will not become a repeat client. 
There are many, better, ways of reducing your business risk, as Pavel has said. Of course, there's no excuse for a rude letter, but it is frustrating to see so many agencies trying to unilaterally impose a heirarchical relationship without any of the benefits of an employment contract.
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Mohamed Mahmoud
Egypt
Local time: 21:51
Member (2011)
English to Arabic
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Million Thanks | Sep 11, 2012 |
Dear Ms. Sheila
I can not find words to thank you. In face I find your advice direct and sound totally correct.
Again, Kindly find my apology if it seems a bit clear issue but I am not used to outsource jobs.
Thanks a lot
| | | | | What a marvellous treatise about the relationship between agencies and translators! | Sep 11, 2012 |
Pavel Mondschein wrote:
Client/outsources is entitled to ask for portfolio, test, credentials etc. But they are in no way entitled to ask for references. There are several reasons:
1) Usually we are bound by NDA. Full stop.
2) It is quite challenging to get good direct clients, everybody knows that. And because outsourcer is de facto also our potential competitor, asking us to provide contacts to *our clients* seems more like scamming than like internal QA procedure
3) There are many other, non-invasive ways of determining if the service provider (note: "service provider", not "job applicant") is suitable for the project. Credentials, portfolio, online research, even free or paid tests. Any outsourcer should make sure that the service provider suits *their* specific needs, but in no way they are entitled to put this burden on shoulders of previous clients of this service provider.
4) In this business, service provider and outsourcer should have the same rights. If you are not willing to provide YOUR references, do not ever ask somebody else to provide THEIRS
There are many other reasons, but I think that these are the major ones. As soon any agency asks me to provide references instead of portfolio, they go to my blacklist. Maybe I am wrong, but for me it means disrespect to translators' rights, attempt to breach their privacy and jeopardizing on their clients. I do not want to work with agencies who do not respect their service providers.
One example for all:
Once I was contacted by one agency (note: they contacted me), they wanted me to work on one of their projects. We have agreed all terms, including rates etc. Then the PM asked me to "provide three references, they are needed in our system to setup your account". OK, I gave them three company names, whose translations I have in my public porfolio. "Uhm... I need names and mails. Otherwise we cannot give you this project." I am sorry, but... what? You asked me to cooperate with you on certain project that fits my specialization, I have passed your free test, but you cannot give me the project unless I breach the NDA and give you access to my direct clients? OK, good bye, I never want to hear from you again. (well, I did not use these words, obviously ).
After one week, the PM changed his mind and said that they can make an exception in my case, no references are needed. "Well, it does not matter, I do not want to cooperate with you, it seems that your attitude to your service providers is different than I find suitable. I do not think you will treat me with dignity." After one month, they sent me the project anyway. I asked them to delete me from their database, as I do not want to be bothered with them. And one more month later, I got the same job from different agency, which was always number 1 for me (with rush surcharge ).
So when dealing with new or potential service providers, keep in mind that they are the same professionals as you are, they run their own businesses and that you need them the same way as they need you... and maybe more . Especially some big players tend to think that they "own" the translators - which is totally wrong.
It makes me laugh when someone in the forum is referring to an agency or customer as an "employer".
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