| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15] > | We MUST quote in low-price jobs with OUR prices! Thread poster: Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
|
|---|
| Chinese translation in France | Feb 7, 2009 |
Arnaud HERVE wrote:
It's like French free-trade economists saying that globalization with China will be harmonious, because "they'll do the t-shirts and we'll do the high value-added stuff, like Airbus and luxury goods". The Chinese, unable forever to do planes and luxury goods? My my...
This reminds me of Japan. For decades after WW2, they rarely invented anything genuinely new and only copied Western inventions, made them smaller, and diligently produced them in masses. Then they learned and started to design and invent themselves. I think nobody will question that Japanese cars, electronics, games and many other things are among the most reliable and interesting today.
Of course the Chinese will learn and will start doing very nice things themselves in 15 years time, or even sooner. But (given that they cease to be a dictatorship some time) the same as happened in Japan, their wages and standard of living will rise to a level comparable with that of the US or Europe, and that will make their goods as costly as they are in the US and Europe.
Maybe the US and Europe will be in such a bad shape economically (as a consequence of most Western entrepreneurs outsourcing everything to China today) that we will not be able to afford Chinese goods, then no need for translation of their goods into our languages will be needed... Maybe Chinese translation companies start outsourcing work back to the US and Europe, and Chinese translators start worrying as you worry today, thinking that that they will be on the dole because translation into Chinese could be done in secret sweatshops hidden at the back of bistros all over France.
| | | |
ScottishWildCat wrote:
2) call centres are NOT exactly the right example, as more and more French companies which thought they were clever to delocalise their call centres to the Maghreb countries now come back to France because of quality issues.
Exactly. In Spain everybody is complaining about call centres of big companies, in so many cases outsourced to Morocco and Latin America. Spanish people just don't understand why people who can perfectly speak Spanish (the accent is not an issue) constantly fail to understand their claims and requests, forcing them to call several times for the same thing.
It's not a matter of language, intelligence or training: we just seem to speak a different language even if we use the same words.
| | | | Taija Hyvönen
Finland
Local time: 17:50
Member (2008)
English to Finnish
+ ...
The three-cent translation agencies may be moving to China, but they will still have to outsource the jobs to Finnish translators. for whom the abovementioned 0.10€/word is the very lowest rate in the rates survey and the average is closer to 0.20 - and it is not going to just suddenly drop to the floor, no matter how you try to twist it, Arnaud. And I can't see native or even non-native Finnish-speakers suddenly popping up in great quantities over there.
The same can be said for... See more The three-cent translation agencies may be moving to China, but they will still have to outsource the jobs to Finnish translators. for whom the abovementioned 0.10€/word is the very lowest rate in the rates survey and the average is closer to 0.20 - and it is not going to just suddenly drop to the floor, no matter how you try to twist it, Arnaud. And I can't see native or even non-native Finnish-speakers suddenly popping up in great quantities over there.
The same can be said for a majority of languages, Finnish is just an example here.
Besides, you do know that call centres are also moving back from India to Europe, because customers are voting with their feet after customer service has suddenly gone, well.. gone. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | You are the one to worry Taija! | Feb 7, 2009 |
Taija Salo wrote:
And I can't see native or even non-native Finnish-speakers suddenly popping up in great quantities over there.
Oh Taija. You are the one to worry! Didn't you know of this thriving Finnish colony just outside of Shanghai called "Little Karigasniemi"? They are just waiting for approval from Chinese officials to import Finnish wood for their saunas, and as soon as they get it they will start translating English into Finnish like wild things! Wake up and smell the kahvi! 
| | |
|
|
|
Taija Hyvönen
Finland
Local time: 17:50
Member (2008)
English to Finnish
+ ...
They are just waiting for approval from Chinese officials to import Finnish wood for their saunas, and as soon as they get it they will start translating English into Finnish like wild things! Wake up and smell the kahvi!
They will take our forests too maybe I can get a job cutting wood...
| | | | | Little Valencia | Feb 7, 2009 |
Taija Salo wrote:
They are just waiting for approval from Chinese officials to import Finnish wood for their saunas, and as soon as they get it they will start translating English into Finnish like wild things! Wake up and smell the kahvi!
They will take our forests too maybe I can get a job cutting wood...
If you do, let me know and we'll create a small wood-cutting corporation. As soon as the Chinese from "Little Valencia" just off Beijing learn to make a proper paella.... I'm out of business!
[Edited at 2009-02-07 21:06 GMT]
| | | | | Having courage when giving quotations | Feb 8, 2009 |
This may be largely a matter of having the courage to stand by one's terms and by one's quality standards.
When we are in the position of the translator, we see that, e.g., 15 offers have already been made, and we think that we have to quote really low now to be given at least a chance. Or we might even refrain from putting in a quotation only one day after the invitation for tender has been announced, based on the assumption that no-one would be interested any longer.
... See more This may be largely a matter of having the courage to stand by one's terms and by one's quality standards.
When we are in the position of the translator, we see that, e.g., 15 offers have already been made, and we think that we have to quote really low now to be given at least a chance. Or we might even refrain from putting in a quotation only one day after the invitation for tender has been announced, based on the assumption that no-one would be interested any longer.
From the vantage point of the tenderer, the world might well seem quite different. Good agencies take great pains to build up a good relationship to their customers, which they hate to jeopardize. Getting good translations has a higher priority for such agencies than being offered cut-rate prices. It is quite possible that the tenderer finds it hard to take 14 quotations seriously of the 15 they have received so far, and that they wish very heartily that other translators might still speak up.
Also, some translators seemingly react to an invitation for tender within minutes of receiving the mail, and the tenderer has a hard time believing that the translators were able to even read the invitation by the time they sent their quotation out.
The outcome of all this is that some invitation for tender comes up, the translators aren't even told to quote "one's best offer", and all the same, a lot of them do at break-neck speed. I doubt that this is the best policy for convincing the tenderer that one is the best translator for that specific job.
Peter ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Stand from the crowd | Feb 9, 2009 |
Peter Bouillon wrote:
From the vantage point of the tenderer, the world might well seem quite different. Good agencies take great pains to build up a good relationship to their customers, which they hate to jeopardize. Getting good translations has a higher priority for such agencies than being offered cut-rate prices. It is quite possible that the tenderer finds it hard to take 14 quotations seriously of the 15 they have received so far, and that they wish very heartily that other translators might still speak up.
Peter, this is an awfully interesting analysis. Thank you so much! These are exactly my thoughts.
Not long ago I visited a great translator whose office is not far from mine. When he expressed his concerns about Proz.com and the situation with low rates in translations into/from Spanish, I explained to him that he (a MITI, DipTrans, and with honours) is exactly the one who would stand out from the crowd if quoting at his price and not a low price like the rest. And I firmly believe it.
| | |
|
|
|
Taija Hyvönen
Finland
Local time: 17:50
Member (2008)
English to Finnish
+ ...
| What Peter is saying is true, but... | Feb 9, 2009 |
These are exactly my thoughts.
If the 3-cent agency receives 5, 10 or 15 quotes from top quality professionals offering reasonable professional rates and one quote saying "I'll have it ready today and proofread it too for the 3 cents", who do you think they will pick? Come on, honestly now...
What you are saying is true when it comes to good agencies. When it comes to agencies with 3-cent rates (or 2,5 ) and 3-cent business practices... no. The only thing that would make them cough up decent rates would be if they suddenly stopped receiving the 3-cent quotes completely. Unfortunately I can't see that happening.
So what can we do? We can decline to work under their conditions and wish in vain everyone else did too. Quoting decent prices sends a message, which will be ignored - up to you to express yourself this way if you want to.
Oh, after all this we are actually back to topic
| | | | | Working the right markets | Feb 9, 2009 |
Taija Salo wrote:
If the 3-cent agency receives 5, 10 or 15 quotes from top quality professionals offering reasonable professional rates and one quote saying "I'll have it ready today and proofread it too for the 3 cents", who do you think they will pick? Come on, honestly now...
Who really cares who they pick? A reasonable agency with clients worth working for will take one out of the first sets you mentioned. That agency will look at the three-center with great suspicion. And if that's what they're really after, it's all for the best too. I doubt the three cent translator will deliver quality at that price (if so, he or she is a fool, because there are much better rates to be had). The agency will most likely end up with shoddy work and get to deal with the consequences eventually.
But it really is an utter waste of time to deal with the zookeepers offering peanuts. I know that Janet and a few others suspect I live in a different world... well, actually I do. I live in a world in which I take full advantage of basic human psychology to achieve the price I want and give customers results with which they are satisfied and which keep them coming back. And in that world I have also found that raising prices actually increases both the amount and the quality of work on offer. Just think about divorce lawyers. Do you really want a 20 dollar per hour divorce lawyer? Those who hope to keep their underwear after the court battle usually don't. They go for the guy who charges 300 dollars per hour. Or if they want a bargain, they'll look for recommendations for a winner who charges $150/hr. Well, the same is true in the world of translation, and if you don't see it, you're just not tuned into those markets. But that's OK... reasonable agencies who will pay you ten to fifteen cents a word are, and they'll collect double to triple that amount or more from the end clients for managing the project. That is as it should be.
| | | | Taija Hyvönen
Finland
Local time: 17:50
Member (2008)
English to Finnish
+ ...
| That's the question we have been pondering for twelve pages | Feb 9, 2009 |
Kevin Lossner wrote:
Who really cares who they pick?
Should we care and send in reasonable quotes, or just ignore them? I can see the point for each approach. I think everything has been said, so a vote would be in order
| | | | | Are you going to set up the poll? | Feb 9, 2009 |
Taija Salo wrote:
I think everything has been said, so a vote would be in order
Not a bad idea
Go for it.
| | |
|
|
|
I second Taija's proposal. Of course this vote will be held just for statistical purposes, and each of us can decide what is best for his/her business and the industry as a whole.
So... Should we quote in low-price jobs with our prices, if the job is one we could do well, have the time to do it and have a genuine interest in getting the job?
I vote Yes!
| | | | | The mystery of the “cheapo” agencies' business model | Feb 9, 2009 |
Taija Salo wrote:
If the 3-cent agency receives 5, 10 or 15 quotes from top quality professionals offering reasonable professional rates and one quote saying "I'll have it ready today and proofread it too for the 3 cents", who do you think they will pick? Come on, honestly now...
I've been trying for some time recently to find out something about agencies' worldviews. Several agency managers have assured me very convincingly that in the translation world, the only marketing that works is good networking. I've heard agencies talk to each other about customer relationships they'd upheld for more than ten years. No wonder they really hate anything happening that would jeopardize their customer relationships.
Now concerning the “cheapo” agencies: To be quite honest, I haven't been able to find out about their business model yet. Where do they get their customers from? You don't build long-term friendships by selling customers low-quality work. Customers will be seduced away from you when someone cheaper comes along if cheapness is your main selling proposition. This makes for sparse, bad, and fleeting customers, and this in turn makes for few jobs.
I recently met a translator that had worked for a notorious German “cheapo” agency (for insiders, the four-letter one) some time ago. As far as I understood her, this agency generates transaction volume by giving project managers hell and making them cry whenever they don't meet their revenue target. This does not seem an effective way to go about it to me, especially for the long term.
So how do these agencies come by enough jobs to survive? It is a mystery to me, and I haven't found out a convincing solution to this riddle yet. (If someone can give me pointers, I'd be happy to hear about them.)
If an agency is willing to buy lackadaisical work for low prices, then that is what they are going to go for, I suppose. The mystery is how they are going about for re-selling that. After all, if it were that easy to sell cheap work for cheap, the translators concerned would have done that on their own already: an agency must rely on getting some sort of commission for its own trouble, and so there is no way an agency can be cheaper than a cheap translator.
Peter
[Bearbeitet am 2009-02-09 12:40 GMT]
[Bearbeitet am 2009-02-09 12:46 GMT]
| | | | Taija Hyvönen
Finland
Local time: 17:50
Member (2008)
English to Finnish
+ ...
| Yes, Tomás should put in a quick poll on this :) | Feb 9, 2009 |
You raise very interesting points, Peter. The only logical explanation I can come up with for clients to keep coming back to the 3-cent agencies (sorry I keep repeating this term, but I like it, because it conveys the message without being officially insulting) is that their clients consider the 3-cent translations a good deal for their money. They don't consider quality translations a priority. They may think it's good enough if it at least vaguely resembles the target language.
Wh... See more You raise very interesting points, Peter. The only logical explanation I can come up with for clients to keep coming back to the 3-cent agencies (sorry I keep repeating this term, but I like it, because it conveys the message without being officially insulting) is that their clients consider the 3-cent translations a good deal for their money. They don't consider quality translations a priority. They may think it's good enough if it at least vaguely resembles the target language.
Which brings us to machine translation: these agencies should be very, very scared. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » We MUST quote in low-price jobs with OUR prices! | Protemos translation business management system | Create your account in minutes, and start working! 3-month trial for agencies, and free for freelancers!
The system lets you keep client/vendor database, with contacts and rates, manage projects and assign jobs to vendors, issue invoices, track payments, store and manage project files, generate business reports on turnover profit per client/manager etc.
More info » |
| | CafeTran Espresso | You've never met a CAT tool this clever!
Translate faster & easier, using a sophisticated CAT tool built by a translator / developer.
Accept jobs from clients who use Trados, MemoQ, Wordfast & major CAT tools.
Download and start using CafeTran Espresso -- for free
Buy now! » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news
