| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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| This is about honesty, not about language proficiency | Jun 26, 2012 |
Jared wrote:
The ability to verify proficiency in a given language may be one way to approach this. Would you verify this separately from translation ability into/from that language?
Jared
Hi Jared,
This is about native language. About telling the truth when listing one's listing native language. Language proficiency is a different kettle of fish afaik.
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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
we'll all have to turn into informants/spies? I will be calling myself out of this...
I don't think it'll be compulsory, old boy. No-one's gonna kick you out if you don't shop 3 people a year.
Just a shame we can't rely on people to tell the truth, though, doancha think....
** sighs wistfully and gazes at the horizon **
| | | | | Supergrass #2 | Jun 26, 2012 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
we'll all have to turn into informants/spies? I will be calling myself out of this... I don't think it'll be compulsory, old boy. No-one's gonna kick you out if you don't shop 3 people a year. Just a shame we can't rely on people to tell the truth, though, doancha think.... ** sighs wistfully and gazes at the horizon **
Well, yes, I know that, but I was never a big fan of Supergrass...
| | | | Sheila Wilson 
Spain
Local time: 19:31
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| I work for some of those agencies, too | Jun 26, 2012 |
Olly Pekelharing wrote:
I don't feel threatened by non-natives with claims to nativeness. All the agencies I work for employ native speakers like you and I who can spot bogus native speakers a mile away. Those that get through assumedly do so because they really do write the target well, and so good for them. I guess I'm in a position of luxury living in an economy that is prepared to pay translators a reasonable rate, because that's the best way to separate the wheat from the chaff, I suppose.
I work for agencies who only employ native speaker, too. As a proofreader. Let me tell you that a good percentage are NOT native speakers! These bogus native speakers are get jobs from agencies on the basis of the lies they are telling here and elsewhere. Of course, it's work for me but I'd rather spend my time zipping through nearly-perfect texts, doing what I'm supposed to do: catching things like "form" where "from" was intended.
Sheila
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psicutrinius
Spain
Local time: 20:31
Member (2008)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Agree with Sheila... | Jun 26, 2012 |
Sheila Wilson wrote: Olly Pekelharing wrote:
I don't feel threatened by non-natives with claims to nativeness. All the agencies I work for employ native speakers like you and I who can spot bogus native speakers a mile away. Those that get through assumedly do so because they really do write the target well, and so good for them. I guess I'm in a position of luxury living in an economy that is prepared to pay translators a reasonable rate, because that's the best way to separate the wheat from the chaff, I suppose. I work for agencies who only employ native speaker, too. As a proofreader. Let me tell you that a good percentage are NOT native speakers! These bogus native speakers are get jobs from agencies on the basis of the lies they are telling here and elsewhere. Of course, it's work for me but I'd rather spend my time zipping through nearly-perfect texts, doing what I'm supposed to do: catching things like "form" where "from" was intended. Sheila
I had to translate into Spanish the following text written by a "native" (from Mars?) English speaker:
“For the power supply switch of plant side, cable for main switch power of the machine side in the power supply, use standard cable which can supply the required power safely”
I claim to be a native Spanish speaker. And I would swear that the author of the original was NOT a native English speaker... or at least had been smoking something illegal while writing.
[Edited at 2012-06-26 19:05 GMT]
| | | | psicutrinius
Spain
Local time: 20:31
Member (2008)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| On a more serious note... | Jun 26, 2012 |
I agree with Sheila. Typos may slip (and they do, even if asymptotically tending to zero), but this is, in principle, a proofreader's job. Sometimes, proofreading is more difficult that translating from anew. Yet the fees vary...
| | | | | Of course such agencies are rife... | Jun 26, 2012 |
... but I'm 90% certain that the ones I work for do not (work with non-natives with the possible exception of those with real native proficiency - at least not in my pair anyway). In most cases I have been able to verify this through personal contact with staff of the agencies concerned. But as I think I said, I'm aware of the relative luxury of my position. And these agencies are in a good position too, because there are plenty of good native-English speaking NL-EN translators available.
... See more ... but I'm 90% certain that the ones I work for do not (work with non-natives with the possible exception of those with real native proficiency - at least not in my pair anyway). In most cases I have been able to verify this through personal contact with staff of the agencies concerned. But as I think I said, I'm aware of the relative luxury of my position. And these agencies are in a good position too, because there are plenty of good native-English speaking NL-EN translators available.
[Edited at 2012-06-26 17:10 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:31
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | @ DavidMTucker | Jun 26, 2012 |
DavidMTucker wrote:
After reading the posts (there are a lot on this subject), I began to wonder why not just eliminate "native language" from the profile, and only have "translation pairs" i.e., Spanish > English, etc. The standard that I have always gone by is to only translate into ones native language, but then there is the debate of "native language," "mother tongue," "dominate language," etc. My thought is that by only listing the translation pairs instead of dealing with the native verses not native language issue, it will be the client that makes the final decision. After all, the client is the one that needs to be satisfied with the end result, not fellow translators.
Thanks for your contribution. I'll have a stab at an answer.
On a normal professional language site (I'm thinking of the professional associations), everyone would have some form of verified credentials and would know only to translate into their native language – there would hardly be an argument. This isn't the case here, anybody can join this site, anybody can become a translator overnight; it's not a question of the bar being low, it simply doesn't exist. For this reason, I suppose, the site has allowed members to declare their native languages so that outsourcers at least know that they are getting a translator translating into their "native language", it's up to them to trust the credentials (whether verified or not) and experience declared on the individual’s profile. Others may correct me but, if I'm not mistaken, the system filters, amongst other things, by native language, if you put more than one you have a better chance of getting picked. For this reason, the system has been thoroughly abused and there's a contingent who would like to put an end to it. One of the main grumbles on the site is poorly paid jobs, however if we cannot offer some guarantee of quality (currently non-existent) then that's all we're going to continue to attract; it's a downward spiral and in fact, it's no longer even spiralling, it's just plummeting.
[Edited at 2012-06-26 19:29 GMT]
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DavidMTucker (X)
United States
Local time: 11:31
Spanish to English
| In total agreement, Lisa, which is why... | Jun 26, 2012 |
I believe by eliminating the option of "native language" some of the abuse could be eliminated. This is, as you indicated, an open enrollment site and I don't see that changing. I can see on the paying member side a different type of verification process including "native language" among other verified indicators that would boost the registrant to a higher position when someone is searching for a translator. For example purposes only, lets say someone is looking for a Spanish to English translat... See more I believe by eliminating the option of "native language" some of the abuse could be eliminated. This is, as you indicated, an open enrollment site and I don't see that changing. I can see on the paying member side a different type of verification process including "native language" among other verified indicators that would boost the registrant to a higher position when someone is searching for a translator. For example purposes only, lets say someone is looking for a Spanish to English translator. When the language pair is put into the search it could pop up something like:
The following list of recommended translators have had their credentials, including native language proficiency, verified by Proz.
and later down the list...,
The following list of translators have NOT had their credentials, including native language proficiency, verified by Proz.
Just a thought.
Best Regards,
David Martin Tucker (Spanish Interpreter)
http://www.spanishdavid.com
https://www.facebook.com/SpanishDavid
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmartintucker
http://www.twitter.com @DavidMTucker ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I you are good you will get picked, eventually | Jun 26, 2012 |
If you are good, you will get picked, eventually, by some customers, regardless of what level of native fluency you declare. If someone is lying, they will get one job, for which they won't get paid and they will never get any work from that customer again. I don't see any real problem here, and also, I don't think too many people are lying. As I said before, they may just have a different notion of a native language.
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 14:31
Spanish to English
+ ...
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
On a normal professional language site (I'm thinking of the professional associations), everyone would have some form of verified credentials and would know only to translate into their native language – there would hardly be an argument. This isn't the case here, anybody can join this site, anybody can become a translator overnight; it's not a question of the bar being low, it simply doesn't exist. For this reason, I suppose, the site has allowed members to declare their native languages so that outsourcers at least know that they are getting a translator translating into their "native language", it's up to them to trust the credentials (whether verified or not) and experience declared on the individual’s profile. Others may correct me but, if I'm not mistaken, the system filters, amongst other things, by native language, if you put more than one you have a better chance of getting picked. For this reason, the system has been thoroughly abused and there's a contingent who would like to put an end to it. One of the main grumbles on the site is poorly paid jobs, however if we cannot offer some guarantee of quality (currently non-existent) then that's all we're going to continue to attract; it's a downward spiral and in fact, it's no longer even spiralling, it's just plummeting.
[Edited at 2012-06-26 19:29 GMT]
This is an excellent summary of the nature, scope, and seriousness of the problem, and one that ought to serve as a basis for all further pertinent discussions of the issue by users, members, and staff.
[Edited at 2012-06-26 22:51 GMT]
| | | | Nuno Rosalino
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:31
Member (2012)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
| You should be a SA or something. | Jun 26, 2012 |
DavidMTucker wrote:
The following list of recommended translators have had their credentials, including native language proficiency, verified by Proz.
and later down the list...,
The following list of translators have NOT had their credentials, including native language proficiency, verified by Proz.
This is actually an idea that could be used to 'patch' the system as it is right now, at least until a better, more permanent solution is found (which I honestly think is pretty unlikely) - it's simple, elegant, and should be easy to implement.
Jared, call the programmer!
[Edited at 2012-06-26 23:41 GMT]
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| Drop proficiency | Jun 26, 2012 |
DavidMTucker wrote:
The following list of recommended translators have had their credentials, including native language proficiency, verified by Proz.
and later down the list...,
The following list of translators have NOT had their credentials, including native language proficiency, verified by Proz.
Not bad, but drop the "proficiency." With respect to native language, I think most clients just want to know what the potential translator's first language is. Proficiency is another ball of wax.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 20:31
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Verifiedness | Jun 27, 2012 |
DavidMTucker wrote:
I can see on the paying member side a different type of verification process including "native language" among other verified indicators that would boost the registrant to a higher position when someone is searching for a translator.
I'll be happy with this if those who don't have anything to verify would be considered verified by default. E.g. if I don't have any language credentials, then I'm to be in the "verified credential" category (unless ProZ.com believes that it should be verified that I don't have any credentials).
| | | | | Doesn't really come acoss as the same | Jun 27, 2012 |
Jared wrote: Hi Lisa, Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
Thank you Jared, so pending any decisions on how to sort out the current confusion and mess, may I suggest that everyone chooses one native language (their choice, they can choose whatever they feel is correct for them) and any further ones remain "Pending verification"? The path has already been laid for the native speaker credential, and the grey icons in essence represent that verification has not been made. Those who wish to declare only one native language in the meantime are able to do so-- if two have been declared, the icons will be grey. Clicking on the icons shows further information. I see no reason to change this at the moment and I feel it would be more productive for me to focus on some of the improvements I've made mention of here instead. Jared
Jared,
I agree 100% with Lisa's proposal and would respectfully suggest that the coloured icons are not nearly as clear-cut as what Lisa is suggesting, quite simply because (IMO) a large percentage of members and outsourcers have no idea what the various colours for the icon actually mean and probably wouldn't bother clicking on them to find out more. Hence the impression is created that the person whose profile it is is assumed to be a native in more than one language without proper verification in the second and, if applicable, subsequent language(s). Surely you wouldn't want such ambiguity to continue to exist, would you?
[Edited at 2012-06-27 08:23 GMT]
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