| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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| U.S. citizenship implications | Jul 21, 2012 |
writeaway wrote:
I for one will be consistent and not only be an official Proz-uncertified translator, but also an official Proz-uncertified native English speaker because I have no intention of sending a copy of either of my passports (UK and/or US) to any online website.
Also, as I said before, any child born in the US automatically receives (received?? -does this still apply?) US citizenship and therefore a US passport. Even if the family moves back to their country of origin, where the child is then raised and educated. If the same applies to other countries, then any verification of passports will be meaningless, as well as totally impractical.
In any case, as we have seen here, people are apparently willing to go to great lengths to sell themselves as natives of a language that isn't their actual native language. For every obstacle, it seems they will simply find a way around it.
Without secret-service like background/security checks, I don't see how Proz or any other site can stop people who are determined to find a way to lie about who they really are. Even the certified pro feature hasn't weeded them out.....
As someone said several pages back, the liars can sleep peacefully.
Yes, writeaway, it still is true: once born in the USA, American forever, even if one becomes a naturalized citizen somewhere else, unless you go to a U.S. Consulate (or similar agency) and officially renounce to your American citizenship. Conversely, children of American parents (both) born overseas are considered U.S. citizens, entitled to secure U.S. passports, even if they never put a foot in the U.S.
Furthermore, while a U.S. passport shows where you were born (mine clearly indicates I was born in Argentina), it does not show the basis for the holder’s citizenship (naturalization, child of U.S. expats, etc.), nor it shows when, if ever, the holder moved to the U.S. [before or after the native language acquisition age limit]. And, in any event, I sincerely doubt that ProZ would provide a tool to do something that potentially can be considered illegal discrimination: selection based on nationality.
Yes, fraudsters are still sleeping in peace, writeaway. That’s why I have a draconian proposal to cut the proverbial Gordian knot. The site grants the privilege [not a right, mind you] to select one target language. For those who only have one native language, the selection language must be their native language. Those privileged few who have two or more native languages, the selection language must be the dominant one, as declared by the individual. Of course, as it is the case for all obligations where compliance is based on personal declarations (income tax comes to mind), there must be enforcement though auditing and stiff sanctions in case of misrepresentations, including the “death penalty” [profile deletion]. Of course, I do not expect to see it.
Best,
Luis
| | | | XXXphxxx (X) 
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:18
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Am I the exception? | Jul 21, 2012 |
I still stand by the fact that I'm prepared to back just about any interim measure on the basis that there are always going to be exceptions. As for the nationality suggestion, I have also pointed out that I don't see the need for passport verification. Those determined to cheat the system will find a way, any way, including falsifying documents. I believe that the current system allows people to classify (albeit self-assessed) "native proficiency" as "native language". You could give some/many ... See more I still stand by the fact that I'm prepared to back just about any interim measure on the basis that there are always going to be exceptions. As for the nationality suggestion, I have also pointed out that I don't see the need for passport verification. Those determined to cheat the system will find a way, any way, including falsifying documents. I believe that the current system allows people to classify (albeit self-assessed) "native proficiency" as "native language". You could give some/many them the benefit of the doubt and call it a white lie or misunderstanding. However, a bare-faced lie about your nationality is a completely different kettle of fish. I'm just not cynical enough to believe there would be hordes lying about that too. Furthermore, do we really think we have an inordinate number of U.S. citizens on this site who aren't native English speakers? Let's think this through carefully, because if we focus on the exceptions we'll never get anywhere.
I digress; the point of this post was to say that I've come across one question I really couldn't possibly answer, perhaps I'm the exception.
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Country of Origin: ... Then you get closer to the truth.
Away for a few days now, looking forward to an all-new, cleaned-up Proz upon my return ▲ Collapse
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There are a lot of good points here, and I think they do reveal interesting angles on this verification issue. Perhaps they'll be addressed in more detail by other posters. I'd just like to spell out the central question the way I see it:
Why would someone who's happy to have their name verified (using their bank card or otherwise), who would present outsourcers with their CV/qualifications/history anyway, and who wants to do business online as an honest and plain dealing profession... See more There are a lot of good points here, and I think they do reveal interesting angles on this verification issue. Perhaps they'll be addressed in more detail by other posters. I'd just like to spell out the central question the way I see it:
Why would someone who's happy to have their name verified (using their bank card or otherwise), who would present outsourcers with their CV/qualifications/history anyway, and who wants to do business online as an honest and plain dealing professional, be unwilling to state their official nationality?
Some of the points above make it seem like it could be used against you, or be misinterpreted. But it's just a simple fact. And if I was an outsourcer considering a person for a job on the US market, and I asked the candidate, "Oh, are you British or American?", I would expect to be told the truth outright. Sure, there's always more to it. "I'm British... but I lived 20 years in New York..." Great, that's for your profile. But what nationality are you? It remains a relevant and reasonable question in the language industry.
As regards security - personally, I travel a lot and I'm used to having my passport handled by hotel clerks, all manner of people in visa offices etc. I don't think there's such a security issue - PROZ could do the verification from the emailed scan and immediately delete it, or at a powwow. No data archives to be hacked.
And at the bottom line - no-one would be obliged to provide this datum. You could leave it blank, that's your free choice if you think stating the truth could be to your disadvantage in any way. But for those who want to support their claims, having a Verified Nationality would be one more piece of proof, among the other info on their profile (qualifications, CV, training courses....), that they are competent to do the job they say they can. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | You must be really kidding people. | Jul 21, 2012 |
Do you think anyone in sound mind will send send you a copy of their passport. Only immigration authorities are authorized to request passports. If someone send you a copy of their drivers license, I would be really surprised, not to mention birth certificates, marriage certificates, DNA tests. This tread is really entertaining, but at the same time it shows how biased some people are. Where did you find those people Lisa who allegedly declare English as their native language and they use const... See more Do you think anyone in sound mind will send send you a copy of their passport. Only immigration authorities are authorized to request passports. If someone send you a copy of their drivers license, I would be really surprised, not to mention birth certificates, marriage certificates, DNA tests. This tread is really entertaining, but at the same time it shows how biased some people are. Where did you find those people Lisa who allegedly declare English as their native language and they use constructions of the type:" I be, Me have". I would love to meet them. I just think they might be imaginary, or perhaps they have lived in another country for 35 years, and have forgotten their L1 which their mother never spoke. ▲ Collapse
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| Asking nationality is a no-go | Jul 22, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: I still stand by the fact that I'm prepared to back just about any interim measure on the basis that there are always going to be exceptions. As for the nationality suggestion, I have also pointed out that I don't see the need for passport verification. Those determined to cheat the system will find a way, any way, including falsifying documents. I believe that the current system allows people to classify (albeit self-assessed) "native proficiency" as "native language". You could give some/many them the benefit of the doubt and call it a white lie or misunderstanding. However, a bare-faced lie about your nationality is a completely different kettle of fish. I'm just not cynical enough to believe there would be hordes lying about that too. Furthermore, do we really think we have an inordinate number of U.S. citizens on this site who aren't native English speakers? Let's think this through carefully, because if we focus on the exceptions we'll never get anywhere. I digress; the point of this post was to say that I've come across one question I really couldn't possibly answer, perhaps I'm the exception. Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Country of Origin: ... Then you get closer to the truth.
Away for a few days now, looking forward to an all-new, cleaned-up Proz upon my return
As you, Lisa, I would accept any interim measures that would remove the most egregious cases. However, discrimination based on nationality is not one of them. In fact, it might be wholly illegal.
First, it is not an efficient measure. Some/many/most of the most active defenders of allowing declared yet not proven multiple native languages are US permanent residents. They can/will be US citizens in a short time (3 years from the application if permanent residency was achieved marrying a US citizen, 5 if for other reasons). Furthermore, becoming citizens will not enhance their linguistic abilities.
Second, it will require ProZ to accept asking the nationality to all its members and users. I will not state whether ProZ can do so (forbidden by the rules), and I am not even certain whether they can or not. Yet, I can tell you that I, as a lawyer, before researching the issue, I would advise them not to do so, from a conservative point of view. At a minimum, it would imply offering a tool that can be used to apply an illegal discriminating factor. Further, it could be alleged that said discriminating criteria tends to support increasing the translators’ compensation, another no-no.
Nationality is a no go.
Luis
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 07:18
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | Exactly, Luis. All of the sudden countless profile pages will be flawed. | Jul 22, 2012 |
Luis Arri Cibils wrote:
Second, it will require ProZ to accept asking the nationality to all its members and users. I will not state whether ProZ can do so (forbidden by the rules), and I am not even certain whether they can or not. Yet, I can tell you that I, as a lawyer, before researching the issue, I would advise them not to do so, from a conservative point of view. At a minimum, it would imply offering a tool that can be used to apply an illegal discriminating factor. Further, it could be alleged that said discriminating criteria tends to support increasing the translators’ compensation, another no-no.
Nationality is a no go.
Luis
Translators living in countries other than their country of origin already have a hard time to prove that their native language skills are still "up-to-date". If I had to submit a copy of my passport, my profile page would state "Native speaker of German" next to "US citizen".
I don't think I will allow this kind of confusion on my profile page, and I am not the only one. This will cause an uproar.
| | | | | need to verify native language, not "native country" | Jul 22, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: ... I digress; the point of this post was to say that I've come across one question I really couldn't possibly answer, perhaps I'm the exception. Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Country of Origin: ... Then you get closer to the truth.
Away for a few days now, looking forward to an all-new, cleaned-up Proz upon my return
Just to make that clear:
I am not advocating that Proz.com make it mandatory for its users to declare their country of origin as the one and only measure to ascertain their native language. It could be included in a more comprehensive checklist (see Janet's comments) that tries to pinpoint one's native language.
That doesn't mean it has to be featured prominently on one's profile page although many translators will make it clear where they were born, grew up, and got their degrees. It's part of the resume.
My point was that information about one's origins (parents, place of birth, school years ...) if you will or country of origin/"native country" (the country in which one was born and/or spent the first years of one's life) will more accurately point to someone's native language than one's citizenship does. But by itself, it's not a fool-proof indicator of one's native language proficiency.
B
[Edited at 2012-07-22 02:14 GMT]
| | | | | Collecting that info, whether useful or not, will likely be illegal | Jul 22, 2012 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: ... I digress; the point of this post was to say that I've come across one question I really couldn't possibly answer, perhaps I'm the exception. Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Country of Origin: ... Then you get closer to the truth.
Away for a few days now, looking forward to an all-new, cleaned-up Proz upon my return Just to make that clear: I am not advocating that Proz.com make it mandatory for its users to declare their country of origin as the one and only measure to ascertain their native language. It could be included in a more comprehensive checklist (see Janet's comments) that tries to pinpoint one's native language. That doesn't mean it has to be featured prominently on one's profile page although many translators will make it clear where they were born, grew up, and got their degrees. It's part of the resume. My point was that information about one's origins (parents, place of birth, school years ...) if you will or country of origin/"native country" (the country in which one was born and/or spent the first years of one's life) will more accurately point to someone's native language than one's citizenship does. But by itself, it's not a fool-proof indicator of one's native language proficiency. B [Edited at 2012-07-22 02:14 GMT]
Whether it is a "fool-proof" indicator or not, collecting "nationality" information will likely be illegal. Thus, collecting "nationality" info is a no-go.
Luis
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| Discrimination | Jul 22, 2012 |
Although I second Luis's concerns about discrimination (in any form), I don't find the arguments that this move would promote discrimination to be persuasive.
I would like to emphasize that as I originally envisaged the scheme it would be voluntary, allowing native speakers to provide a little more evidence to outsourcers. If someone chooses to withhold this information, that is up to them, but clearly I had it in mind that language professionals who are acting bona fide have nothin... See more Although I second Luis's concerns about discrimination (in any form), I don't find the arguments that this move would promote discrimination to be persuasive.
I would like to emphasize that as I originally envisaged the scheme it would be voluntary, allowing native speakers to provide a little more evidence to outsourcers. If someone chooses to withhold this information, that is up to them, but clearly I had it in mind that language professionals who are acting bona fide have nothing to hide in this respect. In fact, for all I know, it could work in a "positively discriminatory" way - e.g. an outsourcer would be impressed that X, although not a US national, had such brilliant English, references and qualifications. They then decide to use X instead of Y, who is a US national, because they feel X would be more competent in understanding the source text. It can work both ways. The only point is that it's the truth, whatever story lies behind it.
Nothing is obligatory on PROZ (e.g. I have no profile at all, and do not use PROZ for business purposes). I think that's a fine approach. However, those who do solicit work via PROZ are also entitled to state information which differentiates them from competitors - their qualifications, language skills, even location. Stating their nationality is simply one further such identifier, and in fact there is nothing to prevent anyone from doing so already. Verification would simply mean that PROZ would offer its authority to authenticate that claim, just as it already authenticates names.
From the legal point of view, I would point out the following:
1) Being asked to reveal your nationality is by no means discriminatory. If it were, then every nation state would be in violation of human rights principles by asking visitors to present their passports.
2) The potential for discriminatory behavior on the part of outsourcers is far beyond the ability of any website to influence. Outsourcers may covertly discriminate on the basis of many things, and probably do. "[I]t would imply offering a tool that can be used to apply an illegal discriminating factor" could equally be said of the option to post a photograph - outsourcers may then wrongfully discriminate based on a translator's skin color, or how handsome or young they look. Names too - maybe an outsourcer will wrongfully dismiss me from the outset as a translator into English because my name happens to be Rekzig Khritzw. So should the showing of photos and the verifying of names be disallowed too? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 07:18
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | This is pretty much the information that is required to obtain FBI clearances | Jul 22, 2012 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
My point was that information about one's origins (parents, place of birth, school years ...) if you will or country of origin/"native country" (the country in which one was born and/or spent the first years of one's life)
Creepy...
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 22:18
Chinese to English
| How can it possibly be illegal? | Jul 22, 2012 |
@Luis
Obviously you know more about this than me, but your claim strikes me as completely bizarre.
First, just look at the jobs board. There are quite a lot of jobs which are restricted to US citizens. Are you saying that's illegal? There are quite a lot of jobs restricted by residency (I worked on a UK government account while I was in the UK; when I moved overseas, I had to stop). There are security reasons for this, and they're perfectly normal restrictions. Proz wou... See more @Luis
Obviously you know more about this than me, but your claim strikes me as completely bizarre.
First, just look at the jobs board. There are quite a lot of jobs which are restricted to US citizens. Are you saying that's illegal? There are quite a lot of jobs restricted by residency (I worked on a UK government account while I was in the UK; when I moved overseas, I had to stop). There are security reasons for this, and they're perfectly normal restrictions. Proz would not be doing anything other than what outsourcers are already doing.
Second, the vast majority of types of identification willy nilly reveal your citizenship. Your passport, your driver's licence, your ID card - they all tell someone what nationality you are. Checking identity is legal.
@ Nicole & Bernhard
I think there's a presentation issue here
If I had to submit a copy of my passport, my profile page would state "Native speaker of German" next to "US citizen".
I wouldn't support them being next to each other. They are not so directly connected.
But I do think there's value here. For Nicole, your CV no doubt makes clear exactly who you are: a German immigrant to the US. Everyone is familiar with the idea that US citizens may be native speakers of other languages, so I don't see why that would cause confusion. Are any of your clients that unsophisticated?
But a citizen of, say, Italy, who claims English as a native language would then be under some pressure to explain how that happened. Parenting, bilingual education? If I suddenly decided to add native Chinese to my profile, there would be a need to explain it.
This is just information. It's up to the clients to decide how to use it. It shouldn't be presented misleadingly - citizenship should not be presented right next to native language as if to say the two are directly connected - but it allows clients a cursory check on the basics of their translator's identity.
Having said that, I'm still concerned about the security thing. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | let me spell it out more clearly | Jul 22, 2012 |
Nicole Schnell wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
My point was that information about one's origins (parents, place of birth, school years ...) if you will or country of origin/"native country" (the country in which one was born and/or spent the first years of one's life) Creepy...
I am not talking about an FBI-like check, come on.
You can run a checklist like this during the native language declaration process:
Country of birth:
Languages spoken by parents:
Language(s) spoken at home:
Instructional language in school:
etc.
I never said it had to be "verified" with documents. You can lie about all these things. I don't care.
But when you have to open your mouth and speak to somebody in the language you claim/declared as your native language, and that person is a native speaker of that language, you can't lie anymore.
B
[Edited at 2012-07-22 05:26 GMT]
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| Asking whether you can get security clearance is not the same as asking your nationality | Jul 22, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote:
@Luis
Obviously you know more about this than me, but your claim strikes me as completely bizarre.
First, just look at the jobs board. There are quite a lot of jobs which are restricted to US citizens. Are you saying that's illegal? There are quite a lot of jobs restricted by residency (I worked on a UK government account while I was in the UK; when I moved overseas, I had to stop). There are security reasons for this, and they're perfectly normal restrictions. Proz would not be doing anything other than what outsourcers are already doing.
Second, the vast majority of types of identification willy nilly reveal your citizenship. Your passport, your driver's licence, your ID card - they all tell someone what nationality you are. Checking identity is legal.
Hi Phil,
Many translation projects require some level of security clearance. I have the lowest level possible security clearance level, "Public Trust". I translate for the DOJ, for example, extradition requests, or requests to foreign nations for foreign assistance to FBI, DEA and other government agencies for cover operations outside the US. I have info re the cover operation, location of the criminal whose extradition is requested and similar information.
Security clearance is not granted to foreign nationals. They really do not ask re your nationality, but whether you can get security clearance.
In addition, while I can hold two passports (US and Argentine), to get any security clearance level you may be asked to surrender your foreign passport. I was a translator for the EOP (Executive Office of the President) through an agency, and translated for President Obama. I translated to Spanish, for example, part of his speech to the Congress re the American Jobs Act. The agency informed me that the document (sent to the translators a few hours before the speech) was classified as "For your eyes only". I could not stop laughing: "Luis Arri, translator 007, licensed to translate". I stop working for that agency, precisely because of the passport requirement. Per the Argentine legislation, I can enter the country with the US passport, but I need to get my Argentine passport if, after staying more than 60 days in the country, I want to leave. I could not surrender my passport as they asked (but not always).
When there is no compelling reason to state your nationality, particularly when your nationality is not really relevant (as here, where it does not unequivocally indicate anything), asking for it may be illegal. This is clear re employment, not quite so re freelance work. That is why I said that as a precaution I would advise ProZ not to provide a tool to secure info that might be used for an illegal purpose.
Saludos,
Luis
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 07:18
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | Yes, absolutely. | Jul 22, 2012 |
Luis Arri Cibils wrote:
Hi Phil,
Many translation projects require some level of security clearance. I have the lowest level possible security clearance level, "Public Trust". I translate for the DOJ, for example, extradition requests, or requests to foreign nations for foreign assistance to FBI, DEA and other government agencies for cover operations outside the US. I have info re the cover operation, location of the criminal whose extradition is requested and similar information.
Security clearance is not granted to foreign nationals. They really do not ask re your nationality, but whether you can get security clearance.
In addition, while I can hold two passports (US and Argentine), to get any security clearance level you may be asked to surrender your foreign passport. I was a translator for the EOP (Executive Office of the President) through an agency, and translated for President Obama. I translated to Spanish, for example, part of his speech to the Congress re the American Jobs Act. The agency informed me that the document (sent to the translators a few hours before the speech) was classified as "For your eyes only". I could not stop laughing: "Luis Arri, translator 007, licensed to translate". I stop working for that agency, precisely because of the passport requirement. Per the Argentine legislation, I can enter the country with the US passport, but I need to get my Argentine passport if, after staying more than 60 days in the country, I want to leave. I could not surrender my passport as they asked (but not always).
When there is no compelling reason to state your nationality, particularly when your nationality is not really relevant (as here, where it does not unequivocally indicate anything), asking for it may be illegal. This is clear re employment, not quite so re freelance work. That is why I said that as a precaution I would advise ProZ not to provide a tool to secure info that might be used for an illegal purpose.
Saludos,
Luis
While it is permissible for employers (!) to ask an applicant certain questions, e.g. to state his or her age if it is less than 18, or to make internal use of date of birth for computations with respect to a pension or profit-sharing plan, for any public website this will be considered beyond improper, to put it mildly. ProZ.com is a US-based portal, so don't expect any steps in this direction.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:18
Hebrew to English
| Discrimination? Perish the thought! | Jul 22, 2012 |
It's also illegal here for employers to ask for certain details, age, marital status (here's a loophole: look for the ring!), nationality and ethnic origin (another pretty obvious one), sexual orientation (another pretty obvious one in some cases - I'm thinking Kenneth Williams...), gender (really? again, just look) and all for the great fear of discrimination, a fear which borders on obsession in modern western societies.
However, Proz.com is not an employer, it's a w... See more It's also illegal here for employers to ask for certain details, age, marital status (here's a loophole: look for the ring!), nationality and ethnic origin (another pretty obvious one), sexual orientation (another pretty obvious one in some cases - I'm thinking Kenneth Williams...), gender (really? again, just look) and all for the great fear of discrimination, a fear which borders on obsession in modern western societies.
However, Proz.com is not an employer, it's a website (and even the outsourcers who use it aren't our employers), and websites ask for these kind of "personal" details all the time....LinkedIn does, for example and arguably that's a comparable website to this in any basic description (a professional networking site). I'm not a lawyer either but I suspect it's probably not illegal to ask its users to volunteer the information, but it may be a bit murky....inadvisable rather than illegal perhaps. ▲ Collapse
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