Feb 1, 2011 20:19
13 yrs ago
Russian term
козёл (see explanation)
Russian to English
Art/Literary
Poetry & Literature
This one's a real brain twister. The author uses the word both literally and figuratively, and it just doesn't work that way in English, since the figurative козёл is jackass. I'm stuck and don't see any solution but ask the author to replace her козёл with осёл. Maybe my esteemed colleagues can do better.
Посмотрите на козла. Он – символ упрямства, похотливости и даже символ сатаны. Он – козёл отпущения. Конечно, есть и положительные трактовки – рог изобилия, например. Или козёл как символ плодородия. Но это, опять же, связано с сексуальной энергией козла, а значит, с похотью.
Больше всего мне не нравится, когда ругаются: «Пошёл на ***, козёл!», выражение «любовь зла, полюбишь и козла» или когда говорят, что все мужики козлы. «Козёл» значит «сексуально озабоченный». Формально ко всем моим обожателям применим этот символ. Фактически – это совершенно не так. Даже если за всеми их побуждениями стояла примитивная жажда секса, им не хватало козлиного упрямства, чтобы довести дело до конца. Но сейчас речь не о них, а о козле.
Посмотрите на козла. Он – символ упрямства, похотливости и даже символ сатаны. Он – козёл отпущения. Конечно, есть и положительные трактовки – рог изобилия, например. Или козёл как символ плодородия. Но это, опять же, связано с сексуальной энергией козла, а значит, с похотью.
Больше всего мне не нравится, когда ругаются: «Пошёл на ***, козёл!», выражение «любовь зла, полюбишь и козла» или когда говорят, что все мужики козлы. «Козёл» значит «сексуально озабоченный». Формально ко всем моим обожателям применим этот символ. Фактически – это совершенно не так. Даже если за всеми их побуждениями стояла примитивная жажда секса, им не хватало козлиного упрямства, чтобы довести дело до конца. Но сейчас речь не о них, а о козле.
Proposed translations
(English)
3 +11 | goat | Rachel Douglas |
4 | chock fbi9zza | Alexandra Taggart |
3 | ram | rns |
Proposed translations
+11
1 hr
Selected
goat
I think you have to stick with goat. There are more of the examples in which it works, than of those where it's a stretch. So, maybe try to stretch? Even if "old goat" isn't quite as rude as jackass, you could still get the idea. An attempt:
Take the billy-goat. He's a symbol of everything stubborn, a symbol of everything lascivious, and even a symbol of Satan. He is a scapegoat. Of course, he has his positive interpretations, such as when his is the horn of plenty. Or the goat as a fertility symbol. Though there, too, you have an allusion to the goat's sexual energy, and hence to lust.
What I most dislike is curses like "Go to hell, you old goat."** or the expression "Love is blind: you may land an old goat," or when people say that all men are silly billy-goats. "Goat" can mean sexually obsessive. Formally speaking, this symbol applies quite nicely to all my admirers. In reality, that is absolutely not the case. Even if everything they do is motivated by a primitive sex drive, they don't have enough of a goat's stubbornness, to follow through. Right now, however, I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the goat.
** Variants to make it cruder:
Go --- yourself, you old goat."
Go to hell, you --- old goat."
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Note added at 2 hrs (2011-02-01 23:15:03 GMT)
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Reply to Mark: Yes, certainly. Not just "goat" by itself, but "old goat." Mild version, "Silly old goat." Cruder version, "F---ing old goat." Those both come pretty close to jackass.
Try searching "you * old goat" - but, not on the whole Internet, use Google books to get published examples. There are a lot of cases where the missing word stresses the sexual side: randy / horny / filthy / lecherous. But there are others, where it's more like jackass: stubborn / silly / crazy, etc. Not exactly the same, but it's a lot less of a stretch than trying to make this entire passage be about some creature other than a billy-goat.
Take the billy-goat. He's a symbol of everything stubborn, a symbol of everything lascivious, and even a symbol of Satan. He is a scapegoat. Of course, he has his positive interpretations, such as when his is the horn of plenty. Or the goat as a fertility symbol. Though there, too, you have an allusion to the goat's sexual energy, and hence to lust.
What I most dislike is curses like "Go to hell, you old goat."** or the expression "Love is blind: you may land an old goat," or when people say that all men are silly billy-goats. "Goat" can mean sexually obsessive. Formally speaking, this symbol applies quite nicely to all my admirers. In reality, that is absolutely not the case. Even if everything they do is motivated by a primitive sex drive, they don't have enough of a goat's stubbornness, to follow through. Right now, however, I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the goat.
** Variants to make it cruder:
Go --- yourself, you old goat."
Go to hell, you --- old goat."
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Note added at 2 hrs (2011-02-01 23:15:03 GMT)
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Reply to Mark: Yes, certainly. Not just "goat" by itself, but "old goat." Mild version, "Silly old goat." Cruder version, "F---ing old goat." Those both come pretty close to jackass.
Try searching "you * old goat" - but, not on the whole Internet, use Google books to get published examples. There are a lot of cases where the missing word stresses the sexual side: randy / horny / filthy / lecherous. But there are others, where it's more like jackass: stubborn / silly / crazy, etc. Not exactly the same, but it's a lot less of a stretch than trying to make this entire passage be about some creature other than a billy-goat.
Note from asker:
Rachel, as an English native would you really accept the analogy being made here? That 'goat' is also used figuratively to denote a person with the characteristics of a jackass? |
Peer comment(s):
agree |
CatRinceoir
11 mins
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Thanks, Monika.
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agree |
Judith Hehir
: This is what I was driving at, Rachel. Precisely!
22 mins
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Thanks, Judi. I didn't read the whole discussion section before. You're quite right: the goat connotations run so deep, it would be, er... capricious to change them. Rams and jackasses won't do.
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agree |
Julie8183
: goat sounds good to me in this context :) some refferences are almost astrology related, so jackass wouldnt work. goat it is! :)
27 mins
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Thanks, Julie.
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agree |
Oleksandr Kupriyanchuk
: Allusions go far beyond the goat's sexual energy, although it seems to be the focus of the author’s interest. Actually, they range from ancient myths and fairy tales to present-days companies named after goat :) and the world-famous Billy-Goat Tavern :).
1 hr
|
Thanks, Alexander.
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agree |
Eric Candle
: stubborn, smelly, scratching..., goat-tone, goat-breed, goat-milker...
1 hr
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Thanks, Eric.
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agree |
Dmitri Lyutenko
6 hrs
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Thanks, Dmitri.
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agree |
Denis Shepelev
10 hrs
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Thanks. Denis.
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agree |
cyhul
10 hrs
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Thank you.
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agree |
tschingite
12 hrs
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Thank you.
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agree |
MariyaN (X)
1 day 6 hrs
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Thanks, Mariya.
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agree |
Ingunite
1 day 19 hrs
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Thank you.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Well, to be honest I'm still not entirely convinced and will be deciding this together with the author, but Rachel has merited the points for putting forth a very persuasive argument."
30 mins
ram
Sexual and satanic aspects are already there. :)
Пошёл на ***, козёл! — go ram yourself
Пошёл на ***, козёл! — go ram yourself
1 hr
chock fbi9zza
I didn't make any mistakes in spelling it.
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Note added at 1 hr (2011-02-01 21:33:15 GMT)
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"Wooly balls"
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Note added at 1 hr (2011-02-01 21:35:16 GMT)
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"TOP GOAT"
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Note added at 1 hr (2011-02-01 21:38:02 GMT)
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"Goateee" - but that is more about bedel
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Note added at 1 hr (2011-02-01 21:40:08 GMT)
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"Horny idle"
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Note added at 1 hr (2011-02-01 21:40:47 GMT)
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"Twisted!
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Note added at 1 hr (2011-02-01 21:41:41 GMT)
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"To the spore goat"
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Note added at 1 hr (2011-02-01 21:42:13 GMT)
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"Papa"
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Note added at 1 hr (2011-02-01 21:33:15 GMT)
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"Wooly balls"
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Note added at 1 hr (2011-02-01 21:35:16 GMT)
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"TOP GOAT"
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Note added at 1 hr (2011-02-01 21:38:02 GMT)
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"Goateee" - but that is more about bedel
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Note added at 1 hr (2011-02-01 21:40:08 GMT)
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"Horny idle"
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Note added at 1 hr (2011-02-01 21:40:47 GMT)
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"Twisted!
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Note added at 1 hr (2011-02-01 21:41:41 GMT)
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"To the spore goat"
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Note added at 1 hr (2011-02-01 21:42:13 GMT)
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"Papa"
Discussion
A couple of terms/phrases could be used (get someone's goat, scapegoat etc). The symbolism in the first paragraph is covered nicely here: http://www.mwphglwa.org/TopLiners/Study and References/Mason...
I guess the only way the second paragraph could work is with some footnote, which always looks like a cop-out. 'All men really get my goat' really isn't the same, is it? Again, with «Пошёл на ***, козёл!», there can be no translation that conveys everything and any translation is likely to come across as contrived or way off the mark. I am aware that this does not really offer any firm assistance. I just hopes it helps to trigger something of use. All the best.