| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Proofreaders - sometimes they scare me Thread poster: biankonera
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| The only problem I have encountered... | Dec 21, 2007 |
The only real problem I have encountered with proofreaders is when an agency assigns the proofreading to a non-native speaker. They often are the ones who make the mistakes in the "proof-read" text, which for the native-speaking translator, it can almost feel insulting. Why an agency would want/need a native-speaking translator and then hand the job over to a non-native speaking proofreader to chop the translation to pieces is beyond me.
I have had experiences with wonderful pro... See more The only real problem I have encountered with proofreaders is when an agency assigns the proofreading to a non-native speaker. They often are the ones who make the mistakes in the "proof-read" text, which for the native-speaking translator, it can almost feel insulting. Why an agency would want/need a native-speaking translator and then hand the job over to a non-native speaking proofreader to chop the translation to pieces is beyond me.
I have had experiences with wonderful proofreaders. I believe that a good proofreading process involves communication between the translator and the proofreader. It is sometimes important to discuss the different ideas in order to come up with the best one. When this communication is present, the text can really become something great. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Proofing and editing | Dec 21, 2007 |
I am still amazed at the number of people who think that proofreading has anything whatsoever to do with translation - it doesn't. That would be editing, a completely different task.
Proofreading only involves checking a text for grammar, syntax, spelling and punctuation. Anybody who speaks the target language at native level and has most grammar/spelling rules memorized and is able to apply them off the top of their head is an excellent proofreader, even if they haven't got a clue ... See more I am still amazed at the number of people who think that proofreading has anything whatsoever to do with translation - it doesn't. That would be editing, a completely different task.
Proofreading only involves checking a text for grammar, syntax, spelling and punctuation. Anybody who speaks the target language at native level and has most grammar/spelling rules memorized and is able to apply them off the top of their head is an excellent proofreader, even if they haven't got a clue about translation. You see, proofreading has nothing to do with the source text, and not only is it unnecessary for a proofreader to see the source text, they should actually be kept from seeing it because it would just complicate their work and increase the likeliness of errors occurring. What many people don't realize is that the proofreader only gets work once the editor has finished working on the text. Likewise, a translation should not be given to a proofreader if it hasn't been edited - that would mean skipping the most important part of the job, which is not translation but actually editing.
While proofreaders have no need to see the source text, and they even shouldn't be aware that what they proofread is actually a translation, editors need to see both source and target, because they are the ones who need to make sure that the translation accurately reflects the source text, that sentence structures are clear, that terminology is consistent and that style is consistent and suitable. Proofreaders have no business touching the style - however, if they notice there is a problem with the style, they should tell the client all the same, naturally.
So, I don't think the problem is that proofreaders are overzealous. The problem is that these two very different tasks are overlapping in clients', translators', editors' and proofreaders' minds, whereas they are perfectly distinct. Of course, if the role of both proofreaders and editors is not clearly defined, as is the case more often than not, people correct each other when they really shouldn't, and this leads to proofread texts full of red underlines, looking like a Christmas tree. I think that in order to avoid the situations most of us here are frustrated with (please, include me in the list - I share your frustrations and I know where they are coming from), people, in particular clients, need to be educated. I often get requests for proofreading wherein the client says "Here you go - this is the translation, and then this is the source text." I always tell them that as a proofreader, I don't need the source text. Then they shake their heads in disbelief - how could you proofread a translation without having seen the source? Well, if I am only going to check the logistics of the text, then what would I need the source text for? Oh, you meant editing! Alright, I can do that, too - but then let me double my per word rate first. Hmmm...
To learn more about the difference between proofreading and editing, I invite you to read this article: http://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/543/1/The-difference-between-editing-and-proofreading
All the best!
[Edited at 2007-12-22 18:44] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Wiki Proofreading | Dec 21, 2007 |
This is Wikipedia's definition of proofreading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proofreading
"Proofreading traditionally means reading a proof copy of a text in order to detect and correct any errors. Modern proofreading often requires reading copy at earlier stages as well."
In this context, the following standard ISO 5776 defines the symbols for proofs:
... See more This is Wikipedia's definition of proofreading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proofreading
"Proofreading traditionally means reading a proof copy of a text in order to detect and correct any errors. Modern proofreading often requires reading copy at earlier stages as well."
In this context, the following standard ISO 5776 defines the symbols for proofs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5776
[Edited at 2007-12-21 20:04] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | EN-15038:2006's Definition of Proofreading | Dec 21, 2007 |
This what the European quality standard for translations defines:
Proofreading: "Checking of proofs before publishing"
Proofreading: "If the service specifications include proofreading, the Translation Service Provider shall ensure that the text is proofread."
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| Onelook.com's definition of proofreading | Dec 21, 2007 |
A meta-search in Onelook.com also verifies the "typesetter's definition" of the term:
http://www.onelook.com/?w=proofread&ls=a
Actually, we should all be talking about Review and Revision, it appears to me.
| | | | Irene N
United States
Local time: 02:51
English to Russian
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Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
I am still amazed at the number of people who think that proofreading has anything whatsoever to do with translation - it doesn't. That would be editing, a completely different task.
I do not expect and do not accept ANY editorial changes from proofreaders. A proofreader is not even supposed to think about the context. He/she is not required to understand first thing about the subject. Otherwise h/s will be missing on the direct duties - completeness, punctuation etc. The initial process done by the translators themselves involves self-editing first and self-proofreading second. These two tasks must be separated by a mile. For that second time the context must be put aside completely because no one can and/or should track grammatical errors and the correctness of the context simultaneously. Misses in both parts are guaranteed.
It is indeed amazing that, apparently, lots of people either do editing for the proofreading price or... better leave the task to the professionals. One would hope that there will be no confusion in this professional environment regarding basic terminology and job descriptions behind it. Isn't it enough that the clients do not know what they really need and what they are supposed to pay for?
| | | | Nicole Schnell 
United States
Local time: 00:51
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | Only excellent translators make excellent proofreaders / editors. | Dec 21, 2007 |
Capesha wrote:
I also translate and do proof-reading.
Prepsently I have a project where 2 translators are working on the same project and I do the proof-reading.
It is a sensible subject, as there are two different styles and we have to decide for the same expressions.
For me, the job of the proof-reader is to help the translator, to find mistakes before the customer will find them.
I try to even improve the translation and not to destroy it.
I know, that there are some enthusiastic people in this job, who try to convert your whole job  . You will find those people in every field of business....
Proofreading / editing is teamwork. I had the pleasure to work with a brilliant proofreader / editor recently. Each and every edit / correction was an improvement and an asset. The result: Perfection.
It will be my pleasure to proofread / edit her work soon. For whatever reason, I have the feeling that there won't be much work to do...
This Lady managed the balancing of translations of two translators from two different continents and would funnel it smoothly and in a diplomatic manner into one consistent direction. We are talking about a project exceeding 100k.
The job descriptions for proofreading / editing have merged. Proofreaders aren't human spellcheckers anymore since any software might take care of that.
To me, proofreading / editing is like getting a second opinion.
Provided, the proofreader / editor is a top-professional.
There are a lot of morons out there. Just don't make the mistake of mixing them up.
| | | | Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 09:51
Spanish to English
+ ...
| review and revision | Dec 22, 2007 |
James O'Reilly wrote:
A meta-search in Onelook.com also verifies the "typesetter's definition" of the term:
http://www.onelook.com/?w=proofread&ls=a
Actually, we should all be talking about Review and Revision, it appears to me.
I absolutely agree, the terms editing and proofreading come from the monolingual / forma publishing world.
Review is the check against the source text
Revision is the same text read only in the source but by a field expert.
These are the terms used in the new European Translation Standard.
[Edited at 2007-12-22 01:53]
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| Revision and Review versus Proofreading from a Quality View | Dec 22, 2007 |
Chapters 5.4.3 and 5.4.4 of the quality management standard EN-15038:2006 define the conceptions of Revision and Review, as compared to the term Proofreading in the chapters 2.6 and 5.4.5:
- Revision
"The Translation Service Provider shall ensure that the translation is revised.
The reviser (see chapter 3.2.3) shall be a person other than the translator and have the appropriate competence in the source and target languages. The reviser shall examine the tr... See more Chapters 5.4.3 and 5.4.4 of the quality management standard EN-15038:2006 define the conceptions of Revision and Review, as compared to the term Proofreading in the chapters 2.6 and 5.4.5:
- Revision
"The Translation Service Provider shall ensure that the translation is revised.
The reviser (see chapter 3.2.3) shall be a person other than the translator and have the appropriate competence in the source and target languages. The reviser shall examine the translation for its SUITABILITY FOR PURPOSE. This shall include, AS REQUIRED by the project, comparison of the source and target texts for terminology consistency, register and style.
Taking the reviser's recommendations into account, the Translation Service Provider shall implement any necessary corrective measures.
NOTE Corrective measures can include retranslation."
- Review
"If the service specifications include a review, the Translation Service Provider shall ensure that the translation is reviewed. The reviewer (see chapter 3.2.4) shall carry out a monolingual review to assess the SUITABILITY of the translation for the AGREED PURPOSE and recommend corrective measures.
NOTE: The review can be accomplished by assessing the translation for register and respect for the conventions of the domain in question.
Taking the reviewer's recommendations into account, the Translation Service Provider shall implement any necessary corrective measures."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Review
- Thus, one may notice that the functions of the revisor and reviewer are aligned to the PURPOSE of the translation as a preliminary requirement during the performance of their task.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purpose
Some say, happiness comes from "fidelity to a worthy purpose".
How many of the contracts and experiences mentioned even complied with this preliminary contractual quality requirement of PURPOSE during their proofreading,
reviewing, or revising process?
This well combats the threats of self-purpose by the proofreader, revisor, or reviewer, in my view.
- Indeed, this quality standard also requires that the competences of the Revisor and Reviewer shall additionally be made just as transparent as the competences of the Translator, in advance. The scope of these preliminary competences are also specified in chapters 3.2.3 and 3.2.4.
How often is this level of transparency put forward?
[Edited at 2007-12-22 07:03] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Cristiana Coblis
Romania
Local time: 10:51
Member (2004)
English to Romanian
+ ...
| standardised translation terminology | Dec 22, 2007 |
Confusions regarding terminology are sometimes made by translators and clients alike. This comes from lack of specific standards (or knowledge thereof). Luckily, it is no longer the case. Translation terminology and practice have been standardised in Europe and in the US, at least. I support the opinion of those who encourage the use of standardised terminology for revision, review, proofreading. It is important for those who choose to offer such services to know what they encompass, especially ... See more Confusions regarding terminology are sometimes made by translators and clients alike. This comes from lack of specific standards (or knowledge thereof). Luckily, it is no longer the case. Translation terminology and practice have been standardised in Europe and in the US, at least. I support the opinion of those who encourage the use of standardised terminology for revision, review, proofreading. It is important for those who choose to offer such services to know what they encompass, especially since they are explained and described in standards now. We are lucky to have new and improved standards for our profession and we should use them to our advantage.
On the practical side, I hope and expect that this standardised terminology will slowly eliminate confusions in the future. Until that fortunate time, I do not assume what I am supposed to do when a client asks for "proofreading", I always ask what type of checks they need, before giving them a quote. As it turns out, most of the time they need revising
[Editat la 2007-12-22 13:55] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Managing risks and resources: a down-to-earth view of revision | Dec 22, 2007 |
Great article...
Managing risks and resources: a down-to-earth view of revision
Tim Martin, Directorate-General for Translation (European Commission)
http://www.jostrans.org/issue08/art_martin.php#abstract
| | | | Vito Smolej
Germany
Local time: 09:51
Member (2004)
English to Slovenian
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | "Only excellent translators make excellent proofreaders / editors" | Dec 22, 2007 |
Now, to the topic of less than excellent translators and proofreaders ...
The big question: how do we get there? The answer: go an extra mile, do not compromise, try to get closer to the ultimate perfection.
Vito
PS: and reading reading reading ... in the target language. Even if you do WalMart flyers.
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Fabio Descalzi
Uruguay
Local time: 05:51
Member (2004)
German to Spanish
+ ...
| Translators? It depends | Dec 22, 2007 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
Only excellent translators make excellent proofreaders / editors.
Editors? Agree. Proofreaders? Disagree. There are monolingual language teachers that are wonderful proofreaders.
Vito Smolej wrote:
PS: and reading reading reading ... in the target language. Even if you do WalMart flyers.
100% agree. The only way to know what a proper text is. For translators and non-translators alike.
| | | | Brandon Wood
Japan
Local time: 17:51
Japanese to English
+ ...
| Non-native proofreaders | Dec 28, 2007 |
I, too, do not like it when a non-native speaker proofreads my documents. The fact is, native proofreaders and translators forJapanese->English are still not as common as other language pairs. As a result, Japanese proofreaders often check my English.
This is all well and good, until the agency decides to pay me less because of all the "mistakes" in my translation. In this case, the "mistakes" were simply sentences that were not literally translated and were made into natural Englis... See more I, too, do not like it when a non-native speaker proofreads my documents. The fact is, native proofreaders and translators forJapanese->English are still not as common as other language pairs. As a result, Japanese proofreaders often check my English.
This is all well and good, until the agency decides to pay me less because of all the "mistakes" in my translation. In this case, the "mistakes" were simply sentences that were not literally translated and were made into natural English. The proofreader went so far as to check to make sure each word from the original Japanese existed in the English, which most of the time it did not. This not only caused me to lose money on that project, but that agency stopped giving me work altogether, and they were a big source of my income. Blah! ▲ Collapse
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