| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | What is the next best thing to Trados? Thread poster: Rebecca Lyne
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Jerzy Czopik 
Germany
Local time: 09:51
Member (2003)
Polish to German
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I don't even think these are mentalities, but just hanging on a single word.
In fact neither do we freelancer depend on our customer, nor do they depend on us.
This is free market and must be seen as such.
But still, if we don't have (satisfied) customers, we cannot exist.
So I still think the dependance is stronger on the side of a service provider than on the side of service user.
But of course you are right in one point: we are fully free in the choice of our cus... See more I don't even think these are mentalities, but just hanging on a single word.
In fact neither do we freelancer depend on our customer, nor do they depend on us.
This is free market and must be seen as such.
But still, if we don't have (satisfied) customers, we cannot exist.
So I still think the dependance is stronger on the side of a service provider than on the side of service user.
But of course you are right in one point: we are fully free in the choice of our customers.
Nevertheless, we depend on having any ▲ Collapse
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I note the comments, but I can't help thinking that, if this is your attitude, you must be doing something wrong. I get paid more for using Trados. I simply charge those clients who request Trados and/or discounts for using it a higher rate. And I get it. Because they think I'm offering them added value. And I am. I also work faster. So, I make even more money...
[Edited at 2008-07-20 22:13]
| | | | | Really great, Viktoria! | Jul 20, 2008 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
Some people may think that they depend on their clients, but in my mind, it is the clients who depend on me. It is precisely when I took conscience of that that the contracts - and the money - started flowing in.
That is exactly what happened to me.
We should all learn to be firmer and more persuasive, it pays off in long-term. This doesn't help who needs work and money today or within a week, I know, but be sure, it pays off...
I have used Wordfast, BTW, since several years, but only for myself - nobody asked me to nor asked me to use any other CAT - and never have given rebates. Why should I? If I gave rebates, that would mean 20 or 30% less income for me, so I would need to increase my rates anyway. I have bought the software, learnt to use it, in order to be more efficient and possibly faster and thus earn more, not less. I don't see why agencies should coll still a lot of more money than they already do - at my/our expenses! I would like to write much more about this subject but better refrain because of my limited English knowledge.
Reading this thread, anyway, I have decided to download and install Metatexis and give it a try; it looks quite convincing to me.
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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
I simply charge those clients who request Trados and/or discounts for using it a higher rate.
Do those clients know that you charge less when you are not required to use Trados? If they did, wouldn't they prefer you to not use Trados and pay less? Unless, of course, you are lucky and the only clients you have who require Trados really only want you to use it because it can technically do something they need that other software can't do, and they are not after the fuzzy rebates... And in that case, you are one lucky freelancer!
By the way, I also give the clients what they want - if they want a CAT rate scheme, I give it to them, with a markup covering for fuzzy rates, so I still get my target rate. However, in that case, being paid more is an illusion - you get paid the same. And you have to go into the added trouble of figuring out what CAT rebates you should offer to be able to make the same money as without a CAT rate scheme. That is not adding anything to your wallet, so if the agency perceives your use of Trados as an added value, on the other hand, you are not getting paid for it either.
But that's not what I meant in my earlier post. I wanted to know if anybody actually got paid more money because they used Trados (e.g., 1000 words paid at $100 without Trados versus 1000 words paid at $120 with Trados) - that is what you seemed to be implying. I've never seen that happen, and I don't keep my hopes up for it either...
[Edited at 2008-07-20 22:52]
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| Yup, tried it myself and it's awesome value for the price | Jul 20, 2008 |
Christel Zipfel wrote:
Reading this thread, anyway, I have decided to download and install Metatexis and give it a try; it looks quite convincing to me.
I also tried it some time ago, more out of curiosity, and I must say it packs a punch for the price. In all honesty, I would say that if someone is new to CAT tools and doesn't know how all those tools measure up to each other, they are better off starting out with Metatexis. Not necessarily because it is the best (which may or may not be true), but rather to get the hang of using a CAT tool. That will give them a better idea of which features are relevant for them, and which features they can do without, as well as features they find that are missing that they may find in another, free, cheap or expensive CAT tool.
Having said that, Trados is good enough for many translation service providers (here, I include freelancers). But it is buggy. Terribly buggy. Especially when you try to install the latest versions. And very complicated to learn to use. I manage very well with it, because I now know the 1000-page documentation by heart, and because I am naturally adept at learning to use software. But most translators are not all about computer science, so Trados may be a very bad choice for a lot of people. For someone who is just starting out using CAT technology, it is better to start off simple with Metatexis and the like. Some may end up getting Trados - but then, they will do so because they know it fits their needs, not because it is supposedly the best. And that will make all the difference in their workflows and in their wallets.
| | | | | An interesting read | Jul 21, 2008 |
I thought some of you may be interested in reading the results of a survey on CAT tools. I believe all of us can learn something from this very complete paper, which discusses CAT tool features that are important to different types of users (translators, PMs, agencies, etc.), how users rate some of the most popular CAT tools, what new features users would like to find in future releases, etc.
... See more I thought some of you may be interested in reading the results of a survey on CAT tools. I believe all of us can learn something from this very complete paper, which discusses CAT tool features that are important to different types of users (translators, PMs, agencies, etc.), how users rate some of the most popular CAT tools, what new features users would like to find in future releases, etc.
http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/pls/portallive/docs/1/7307707.PDF ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Slight disagreement | Jul 21, 2008 |
Kevin Lossner wrote:
Nearly any CAT tool properly used will lead to a recovery of costs fairly quickly.
I work with Trados regularly and have owned it for several years. Although my powers of recollection won't win any awards, I do remember back when I started that the only way I could possibly have 'recovered costs fairly quickly' was because I purchased it at the recommendation of a client that now requires it. So in that regard, the 'recovery of costs' was me not losing (potential) business, then and now.
HOWEVER, that having been said, it took me around 2 years to see any actual time-benefit from TMs, meaning repetitions or fuzzy matches that in any way enabled me to save time with translations - and that only because I have added thousands of segments to my "master TM" from other agency clients willing to share.
In other regards, I'm pretty bitter about being *constantly* asked for discounts based on TM repetitions and fuzzy matches. As I tell my clients now - and am beginning to lose work because of this - repetitions and fuzzy matches do not necessarily lead to a reduction in the amount of time I spend on a translation, and in many cases actually add more time.
Instead of 1) seeing a source sentence, 2) taking the time to think about the words and phrasing I want, and then 3) producing a target segment, I now have to:
a) review the source segment
b) examine the suggested/matched segment
c) examine each of the alternative segments (suggested and lower matches), especially to consider whether the translation is correct (other translators often pop up in the TM) and/or the particular phrasing fits
d) consider whether the matches contain the appropriate terminology for the context/client
e) even in the case of a 100% repetition, I still have to examine the match for context/terminology (and even more if I was not the original author)
f) potentially "fix" a fuzzy match suggestion to produce the target segment - and as people have pointed out, "proofreading" can often take more time than translation-from-scratch!
etc.
Can I perhaps offer improved quality thanks to the consistency checks built in to this process?
NOW that I've built up master/client/project TMs, the answer is definitely YES.
But if the question is: do I actually save time every time I use Trados - or even a majority of the time I use Trados - thus allowing me (should I so choose) to take on more work during the same work week, thus increasing my income - the answer is a resounding NO.
And going back to the issue of improved quality through consistency: Am I able to recoup costs/time by charging more for this added benefit?
Again, I would say in general the answer again is a resounding NO. Although I raised prices in general for 2008 - the first time in several years and have lost work in doing so - I am still asked over and over again for *discounts* for the privilege of working harder with Trados.
I have seen surprisingly little monetary benefit from using Trados - other than the ability to work with clients who request that I do so. And with the varying economic conditions of the various countries where my contacts are located added into the mix, I know I have lost work because of rates and Trados discounting.
But that is my choice.
I think to be perfectly fair, each translator considering using Trados or another CAT tool should be aware of these factors, even though I do not myself lament purchasing Trados (much).
Using this CAT tool enables me to do what I consider most important: offer the best quality translation I can.
The financial factors are something that I have to make my own decisions on, as should any other businessperson - but in a best case scenario, having been given all of the information available.
| | | | | Please no more "CAT vs. no CAT" thing... | Jul 21, 2008 |
...it's been discussed so often in the past! And it is clear to me that translators can quite freely choose to buy a CAT tool (or even Trados) depending on their needs and business goals.
If you want to work for certain customers a CAT tool is a must. Period. If you can live without that kind of work and reusable text is not part of your daily work, then you don't need a CAT tool. Period. Having a CAT tool, or not having one, does not make you a more or less sensible person. It's j... See more ...it's been discussed so often in the past! And it is clear to me that translators can quite freely choose to buy a CAT tool (or even Trados) depending on their needs and business goals.
If you want to work for certain customers a CAT tool is a must. Period. If you can live without that kind of work and reusable text is not part of your daily work, then you don't need a CAT tool. Period. Having a CAT tool, or not having one, does not make you a more or less sensible person. It's just a matter of whether you need it or not for your business goals. It's sensible to have the tool if you need it. It is not sensible to pay for something you don't need. Period.
Honestly folks, there is little else to discuss. No philosophy, no karma stuff about using or not using CAT tools. It's just business!
[Edited at 2008-07-21 07:35] ▲ Collapse
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Fay Abernethy (X)
Local time: 09:51
German to English
| Compare to other industries | Jul 21, 2008 |
This thread goes on and on!
I've been translating for nearly a year now. Before that I was a design engineer in the automotive supplier industry. For design engineers, the issue is not CAT, but CAD (Computer Aided Design). There are a variety of extremely expensive programs that can be used to create 3D models and 2D drawings of a component. Like CAT tools, none of them are perfect. They get better with every release, but in general many of the popular ones are not even as user frie... See more This thread goes on and on!
I've been translating for nearly a year now. Before that I was a design engineer in the automotive supplier industry. For design engineers, the issue is not CAT, but CAD (Computer Aided Design). There are a variety of extremely expensive programs that can be used to create 3D models and 2D drawings of a component. Like CAT tools, none of them are perfect. They get better with every release, but in general many of the popular ones are not even as user friendly as Trados!
But - my point is - it is the customer who decides in what format they want to have the data. Large automotive supplier corporations have exactly the same problem as us freelance translators. They use a certain software in-house, but the customer (car manufacturer) needs the data in another software. Although there are conversion programmes, often the level of detail the customer requires means the supplier must comply and buy new software. And we are not talking about a few hundred euros here. It is either that, or lose the business. Before now I have had to model the same component with two different programs from scratch to meet customer and company-internal requirements.
The customer is always right. You have to decide how far you are willing to go to get the business. I bought Trados rather reluctantly, because one customer wanted me to use it with their remote server. But the amount of business I get from that customer has already paid for Trados many times over. So I don't regret it at all. I use it when I have to, and use MemoQ when I don't. ▲ Collapse
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Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
I simply charge those clients who request Trados and/or discounts for using it a higher rate.
Do those clients know that you charge less when you are not required to use Trados? If they did, wouldn't they prefer you to not use Trados and pay less? Unless, of course, you are lucky and the only clients you have who require Trados really only want you to use it because it can technically do something they need that other software can't do, and they are not after the fuzzy rebates... And in that case, you are one lucky freelancer!
By the way, I also give the clients what they want - if they want a CAT rate scheme, I give it to them, with a markup covering for fuzzy rates, so I still get my target rate. However, in that case, being paid more is an illusion - you get paid the same. And you have to go into the added trouble of figuring out what CAT rebates you should offer to be able to make the same money as without a CAT rate scheme. That is not adding anything to your wallet, so if the agency perceives your use of Trados as an added value, on the other hand, you are not getting paid for it either.
But that's not what I meant in my earlier post. I wanted to know if anybody actually got paid more money because they used Trados (e.g., 1000 words paid at $100 without Trados versus 1000 words paid at $120 with Trados) - that is what you seemed to be implying. I've never seen that happen, and I don't keep my hopes up for it either... [Edited at 2008-07-20 22:52]
I am getting paid for it. It's simple: the rate might be the same as my normal rate, but I get paid more because I work faster... it's not just the rate, but how much work you can do in one hour... people seem to forget this and this is one of the biggest advantages of using a CAT tool. Without mentioning when the client does not require it, you use it, and make xxx extra money because of the reps and the time saving...
It's a free market. Nobody forces anybody to use a CAT tool, but this is the path the market is taking. I'm sure there are plenty of clients/agencies that do not require a CAT tool (I work for several). The ones that require it, they want it for terminology consistency, not to ask for discounts... just find 'more ethical' agencies... believe me, they exist.
| | | | | Some are willing to go too far | Jul 21, 2008 |
Fay Abernethy wrote:
You have to decide how far you are willing to go to get the business.
You are right. But the problem is precisely that too many people are willing to go way too far for what little business they can get their hands on. As a respected colleague said in a recent thread: they make me feel like a translation whore.
| | | | | Another half-dime | Jul 21, 2008 |
The next best thing to owned Trados is borrowed (in good faith) Trados, as I might infere from what has been said.
On my part, I would compare our craft with this one of waiters in a high-end restaurant. Strange thing, the restaurant keeper (translation agency) wants the waiters / waitresses with their own tableware (tools)! And the customer pays for three identical steaks the price of one. Here we go
... See more The next best thing to owned Trados is borrowed (in good faith) Trados, as I might infere from what has been said.
On my part, I would compare our craft with this one of waiters in a high-end restaurant. Strange thing, the restaurant keeper (translation agency) wants the waiters / waitresses with their own tableware (tools)! And the customer pays for three identical steaks the price of one. Here we go
[Edited at 2008-07-21 20:13] ▲ Collapse
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| | JAN SNAUWAERT
Belgium
Local time: 09:51
Member (2008)
French to Dutch
+ ...
| What about the TRADOS certification exam | Mar 12, 2009 |
Recently, a couple of weeks ago, I subscirbed to a TGB offer on ProZ that would give a training to the subscriber in order to facilitate the process of certification. Now, when I go to "my account" on the SDL Trados website, I find some things that puzzle me. There are now two exams put into my account, one for the Workbench, the other for SDLX. But, one things that puzzles me is: there is no unambiguous statement that says that these are the exams are the ones that allow me to get certified at ... See more Recently, a couple of weeks ago, I subscirbed to a TGB offer on ProZ that would give a training to the subscriber in order to facilitate the process of certification. Now, when I go to "my account" on the SDL Trados website, I find some things that puzzle me. There are now two exams put into my account, one for the Workbench, the other for SDLX. But, one things that puzzles me is: there is no unambiguous statement that says that these are the exams are the ones that allow me to get certified at the level I wanted be, e.g. at level 1 (beginner's level). On the contrary, this seems to be a "placement exam", which is not what I wanted to subscribe to, or what was said it would be when the offering was made. I don't want to take an exam to determine at which level I am with SDL Trados: I know that I am at the beginner's level!! They say "results of the placment exem will recommend which level of certification you should attend: 0-22: level 1; 23-29: level 2; 30-40: level 3". On the other hand they put that the pass mark for all exams is 30/40. That seems totally contradictory: how can I, as a beginner, have to obtain at least 30/40, which would be the same score that a level 3 user would have to obtain in order to get certified!? I know there are a lot of SDL certified people in ProZ. Can anyone help me with this issue? Thanks on beforehand.
Jan ▲ Collapse
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