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unravel
Jul 21, 2014 00:07
9 yrs ago
English term

the

Non-PRO English Bus/Financial General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters basis English/use of definite article
On behalf of the xxx Branch of the YYY Co., Ltd., I would like to apply for nominal support for the following events.

I would like to know whether "the" is need or not.
Responses
4 +6 No, you don't need "the" before "YYY Co. Ltd."
4 +1 Yes, you need "the."
Change log

Jul 21, 2014 00:28: writeaway changed "Field (specific)" from "Business/Commerce (general)" to "General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters" , "Field (write-in)" from "(none)" to "basis English/use of definite article"

Discussion

Björn Vrooman Jul 21, 2014:
Additional info Be aware, though: some companies might include a capitalized "The" in their registered name. Thus, you would have to use the article.

When you're translating journalistic texts: Don't bother with it is my recommendation. I work in the field a lot and I just don't think it is necessary at all unless you want to write a story about a business restructuring.

In your case I can see it's no journalistic endeavour. So, I'd recommend omitting "the" before YYY, but keeping Co., Ltd. As both are just descriptive abbreviations referring to the company structure, I wouldn't use "the", because it puts too much emphasis on "company limited" and too little on the company name.


For a related discussion, please see: http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/76976/is-it-prope...
Björn Vrooman Jul 21, 2014:
Explaining the "the" Hello yoshimi,

What, I think, everyone could agree to is that company names are usually not preceded by "the".

The problem here is when we add sth. to the company name, such as Marketing Department or spell out the name.

Example: IBM (no article), but the IBM Marketing Department. However, Internal Business Machines Corporation (e.g., see http://www.google.com/finance?cid=18241).

Another case: the Mountain Apple Company records, but Mountain Apple Company

Microsoft: the Microsoft Corporation settlement, but Microsoft Corporation
(e.g., see http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/exec/steve/ and http://apps.microsoft.com/windows/en-us/app/bing-weather/421...

Of course, when it comes to the spelled-out name, you will also find a lot with "the", it's not as clear-cut as it should be.

But the question remains, why would you want to change a perfectly simple rule (omit "the" before company names)? Moreover, the "Ford company" is different from "Ford Motor Company": the non-capitalized version is a common noun, the other one is a proper noun - it is part of the name, so no "the" (see also https://twitter.com/Ford).
Frank Szmulowicz, Ph. D. Jul 21, 2014:
This is the first time that I have taken part in the English-English pair. Your indulgence and constructive comments would be greatly appreciated. The subject of the articles can lead to wars.
Frank Szmulowicz, Ph. D. Jul 21, 2014:
Discussion from the web:
If you are going to keep the word "company" (in the abbreviation or spelled out, either one), then I would use the word "the."

For example:

The Bethany Paint Company

You can call it either "BP" or "the BPC."

You could say:

BP executives began to notice the downturn in sales. "At that time," according to Harry Smith, "the cost overruns at BP were outpacing revenue."

- or -

The BPC executives began to notice the downturn in sales. "At that time," according to Harry Smith,"the cost overruns at the BPC were outpacing revenue."
____________________________________

But really, there isn't much difference if you go by some other plan. Readers will quickly get used to whichever you decide, as long as it sounds natural and easy on the ear.

Very likely there already exists a way that insiders and employees refer to their organization anyway. If you know what that is, you should go with that.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090718114434A...
Frank Szmulowicz, Ph. D. Jul 21, 2014:
By adding Co., the name becomes a common noun, not a proper noun, hence "the" is merited: the Apple, the Ford, the Microsoft company; omitting "company" can result in a proper name - Apple, Ford, Microsoft - in which "the" is not needed. For example, you do not call your friend "the George."

With all of that said, these rules are often broken, especially in journalese and in common speech, to the point where the omission of "the" has in some cases become idiomatic.
yoshimi (asker) Jul 21, 2014:
Changed the question: I would like to know whether "the" for YYY company is need or not.

Responses

+6
1 hr
Selected

No, you don't need "the" before "YYY Co. Ltd."

You will normally say "the X branch of [company name]". If the company's name includes "the", then of course it will be included, but if (as is usually the case) it is simply "A&S Machinery Co.,Ltd.", for example, then there is no need for "the". It is sometimes included, sometimes not, but it is not needed.

What does sometimes happen is that you have a company whose registered name is Apple or Microsoft, for example, and it is referred to as "the Apple company" or "the Apple corporation". In that case you would put the article. But if it's "YYY Co. Ltd.", then clearly "Co. Ltd" are part of the company name, and unless the registered company name includes the article, it's not usually included.

Cases like the following are perfectly normal:

"The bus was made in China and is being demonstrated by the U.S. branch of BYD Co. Ltd."
http://www.columbian.com/news/2014/mar/10/spokane-transit-au...

"Fumi Sugita, general manager of Aiya America, the U.S. branch of Aiya Co., Ltd., headquartered in Nishio City, Japan."
http://www.specialtyfood.com/news-trends/featured-articles/a...

"The Bangkok Branch of Toyota Motor Sales Co., Ltd.
Toyota Motor Sales Co., Ltd. established a branch in Bangkok, Thailand on June 16, 1957."
http://www.toyota-global.com/company/history_of_toyota/75yea...


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-07-21 01:37:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

But please note that I'm not saying you can't include the article or that people never do, even if the article is not part of the registered name. I'm simply saying that you don't have to, and in my opinion you normally wouldn't.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2014-07-21 01:43:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I do very much agree with Microjanus that there is a large element of custom in this. I believe the registered name of Microsoft is "Microsoft Corporation" (no article), but I would be willing to bet that when people refer to it by that name they nearly always call it "the Microsoft Corporation", not just "Microsoft Corporation": it just sounds more natural.
Peer comment(s):
agree Björn Vrooman : See my discussion post I'm about to enter. However, I kind of disagree with the last note added - I think it's more appropriate to call it "confusion" rather than "custom".
3 hrs
Thanks, Björn! I agree with what you say here. I was thinking of what people might say or write informally. In an official business document it certainly couldn't be done. The confusion in this case is often whether "Co" is actually part of the name.
agree Jack Doughty
3 hrs
Thanks, Jack!
neutral Václav Pinkava : "the" is needed before XXX, not before YYY in the example
5 hrs
Absolutely! I didn't address that point (though I answered it implicitly in the first line of my explanation) because the asker changed the terms of the question to limit it to the YYY case (see first discussion post). Thanks, Václav.
agree David Moore (X)
11 hrs
Thanks, David!
agree Jean-Claude Gouin
12 hrs
Thanks, 1045 :)
agree Diana Alsobrook
12 hrs
Thanks, Diana :)
agree B D Finch : It depends on the company name in question, but it would be quite unusual to use the definite article.
14 hrs
Thanks, Barbara! Yes, I agree.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you very much. I deleted "the" before YYY Co., Ltd."
+1
31 mins

Yes, you need "the."

I cannot think of a case when you do not need "the" in front of YYY company.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 31 mins (2014-07-21 00:39:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

the Apple Company, but I work for Apple
Peer comment(s):
agree Parvathi Pappu
13 mins
Thanks, paru72. For every rule, there is an exception, which then makes the rule a rule.
neutral Charles Davis : Unless the article is part of the registered name it will not usually be included, and certainly not necessarily. You would say "the Apple company", but "company" is not part of its name; you wouldn't say "the Apple Inc.". As with "Inc.", so with "Co Ltd"
44 mins
Very apt observations, Charles. I did not address myself with regard to Inc. The preponderance of company names followed by Co. do start with "the." As I expanded upon in the discussion, some usage of "the" has become idiomatic.
neutral Sheila Wilson : YYY Co. Ltd. as in the question does NOT take an article.
7 hrs
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