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每小时翻译字数
Thread poster: XIAODAN SUN
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
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An honest effort Apr 15, 2013

Alan Wang wrote:

wherestip:

I am not arguing... not for the sake of argument.

Anyway, I can somehow see it quivering on the horizon of what you'd say, translated as:

无论如何,我觉得“在地平线上喷薄欲出”在此完全译出了原文的意思,所以说是好译文。


I'm not sure what you're trying to say. But I think Wu tried to combine the meaning of "revelation" into the term 喷薄欲出 also. So it's not that outlandish.

In no way am I defending his translation of this partial sentence. But IMO the way he treated it sure beats glossing it over and pretending it wasn't there.


 
Alan Wang
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wait a minute... Apr 15, 2013

The word quivering does not mean 喷薄, but 颤抖, so much for sticking to the original!

Oh... you are not defending...

what's the argument about?

I will stop it here. It's time to get to my work.



wherestip wrote:

Alan Wang wrote:

wherestip:

I am not arguing... not for the sake of argument.

Anyway, I can somehow see it quivering on the horizon of what you'd say, translated as:

无论如何,我觉得“在地平线上喷薄欲出”在此完全译出了原文的意思,所以说是好译文。


I'm not sure what you're trying to say. But I think Wu tried to combine the meaning of "revelation" into the term 喷薄欲出 also. So it's not that outlandish.

In no way am I defending his translation of this partial sentence. But IMO the way he treated it sure beats glossing it over and pretending it wasn't there.


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
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Discussions are not a one-way street Apr 15, 2013

Alan,

Why don't you respond to some of the questions I posed to you this morning, and maybe I could be enlightened on how excellent the translation is that you swear by.

BTW, I never read "The Great Gatsby", only watched the movie. And I'm only reading the paragraphs that you're quoting as we go along. I really have no interest in commenting in public on other people's translation abilities, although I'm far from being in the dark.


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
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要讲道理 Apr 15, 2013

Alan Wang wrote:

The word quivering does not mean 喷薄, but 颤抖, so much for sticking to the original!

Oh... you are not defending...

what's the argument about?

I will stop it here. It's time to get to my work.



wherestip wrote:

Alan Wang wrote:

wherestip:

I am not arguing... not for the sake of argument.

Anyway, I can somehow see it quivering on the horizon of what you'd say, translated as:

无论如何,我觉得“在地平线上喷薄欲出”在此完全译出了原文的意思,所以说是好译文。


I'm not sure what you're trying to say. But I think Wu tried to combine the meaning of "revelation" into the term 喷薄欲出 also. So it's not that outlandish.

In no way am I defending his translation of this partial sentence. But IMO the way he treated it sure beats glossing it over and pretending it wasn't there.



Did you read my posts at all? I said Wu's translation was a lot better than Li's on the sentence you quoted yesterday. Did you see me say much about Wu's translation on the 2nd passage that you quoted today except that he made a conscientious effort?

What is the argument about, you ask? If you read my post from this morning, you would know that I take exception to your statement:

Alan Wang wrote:

"... 一连串的汉语成语和习语表达,明显更流畅更漂亮,似乎也更贴切原意,这算是比较经典的文学翻译!"



If you could take some time out of your busy schedule and respond to some of the questions I posed to you, maybe I could be persuaded and see it your way.

wherestip wrote:

Yes, Li's writing is okay as long as you're not constrained by the original. Let me simply ask you this: where did he express the meaning of "plagiaristic"? And how did he handle the partial sentence of "I realized by some unmistakable sign that an intimate revelation was quivering on the horizon"?

You can criticize Wu's Chinese phrasing as much as you want - clumsy, awkward, desperate, and what not. But at least he made an attempt at imparting to the reader what the original author wrote, instead of letting some terms, phrases, or partial sentences completely evaporate into thin air, such as Li did.

And where in the world does one get 自作多情 or 并不由衷 ? If these are the equivalent of unsought and plagiaristic, they are off by a mile.




[Edited at 2013-04-15 22:19 GMT]


 
Loise
Loise
France
Local time: 12:17
French to Chinese
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慢工出细活 Apr 15, 2013

J.H. Wang wrote:

Loise wrote:

需要“慢慢来”的时间才能避免。事实上,速度没有价值,严谨无误的翻译才值得自豪。



他的确需要慢下来。否则的话,一方面质量会受限制,另一方面,竟然得出了翻译费很高的结论!不过,看他的经历,好像还是很有文学基础的。

http://baike.baidu.com/view/1130339.htm#sub8387445

“他在古体诗词创作领域有超过二十年的经验,相关的兴趣延伸到古籍整理领域,目前正在对《秋水轩尺牍》和《两当轩集》进行整理和笺注。”

他的文学底子不错,下笔流畅,有才气,具备从事文学翻译的基础。然而,仔细地看了他的译文,感觉多处的文意理解和文字推敲过于草率。我想,多花一点时间思考原文的内涵,仔细推敲对应的译文,应该有益于提升他的翻译质量。否则一味求快,不过是糟蹋了他的才华。用大量、快速、草率的翻译来提高稿费收入,绝对不是译者的正途!

[Edited at 2013-04-15 16:04 GMT]


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
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确实如此 Apr 15, 2013

Loise wrote:

事实上,速度没有价值,严谨无误的翻译才值得自豪。

确实有人以日译万字而自豪,也有人以不能日译万字而自叹不如。不少人就是因为翻译价格太低,就以速度来弥补。不过,认为每千字60元的翻译报酬“算是极高也不为过”的说法,我倒还是第一次听说。用一句俗话来形容就是,被别人卖了,却还帮着别人数钱。

当有人质疑“日译万字”的做法时,也有人说,不能因自己百米跑得慢而质疑世界冠军的纪录。跑百米怎能与翻译相提并论呢?这实在是一种很荒唐的比喻。我倒也想问他一句,能不能因为自己的翻译质量差而认为别人的质量也差呢?


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
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"英语热" Apr 15, 2013

J.H. Wang wrote:

我觉得,当前的情形是,青年译者的中文程度普遍是下降了。对于英文程度,我不能说下降了,因为现在英语教育还是很重视的,而且学英语的人还很多,应该是普遍提高了,但是,真正高水平、胜任图书翻译的译者恐怕还是很稀缺的。也可能是外语好的人根本就不做翻译,也可能是这样的人本来就稀少,或者其他原因。


张树华:"英语热"耗费大量教育资源 教学陷怪圈
http://news.china.com.cn/2013lianghui/2013-03/11/content_28208256.htm
张树华说,重视和学习英语只是一种手段,是基于我们改革发展的需要,一些教育部门和机构却本末倒置,将它当作了唯一的目的。学生在学习英语的过程中深受其害,荒废正常的学业,使整个中国的教育质量遭到毁灭性打击,汉语也遭遇前所未有的危机。

张树华认为,“英语热”耗费了大量的教育资源。“英语学习风”现在已经刮到幼儿教育中来。幼儿园时期就开设外语必修课,违背了孩子的天性和接受能力。中学阶段,英语始终是语文、数学之外的三门主课之一。英语在大学被推到至高无上的地位,过不了四级就休想拿到学位。四级考过了,学生要接着准备考六级,准备研究生英语考试。频繁的英语考试消耗了学生大量的时间和精力,同时也使大学的专业课遭到沉重打击。对很多大学生而言,专业课只要考及格就行;毕业论文也只是走走过场罢了。结果是,中国的大学教学质量每况愈下,已经接近世界高等教育的最低水平。


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
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喷薄欲出 Apr 15, 2013

I'm actually liking 喷薄欲出 a lot for "quivering on the horizon". The dictionary gives me "形容水涌起或太阳初升时涌上地平线的样子", which is exactly right. I think Wu just overdid it with the 地平线, he could have left that out.

I can't work out how to put this sentence together, but could you use 马脚 for unmistakable sign? 地处性的轻浮? 葫芦一样/重规叠矩?


[Edited at 2013-04-15 17:49 GMT]


 
wherestip
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unmistakable sign Apr 15, 2013

Phil,

毋庸置疑的迹象 is how I would put it. 马脚 is similar, but it usually refers to some hidden agenda that someone wants to keep under wraps.



Most of the confidences were unsought—frequently I have
feigned sleep, preoccupation, or a hostile levity when I realized by
some unmistakable sign that an intimate revelation was quivering on
the horizon ...



这些推心置腹的倾吐大多都是强加于我的 —— 每当我从毋庸置疑的迹象觉察到对方勃勃欲发地想袒露自己的隐私,我一般都是或佯装打盹、或故作沉思、或有意打岔取笑 ...

这些推心置腹的倾吐大多都是强加于我的 —— 每当我从毋庸置疑的迹象觉察到对方想袒露的隐私浮动在地平线上勃勃欲发,我经常都是或佯装打盹、或故作沉思、或有意打岔取笑 ...

这些推心置腹的倾吐大都是不经问询自己开腔的 —— 每当我从毋庸置疑的迹象感觉到别人对自己私事的揭示临浮于地平线上,我通常就佯装打盹、故作沉思、或假装恶作剧硬是开个玩笑 ...

Anyway, good or bad, it's a few ways I could think of in handling this.


[Edited at 2013-04-16 14:14 GMT]


 
Marvin Sun
Marvin Sun  Identity Verified
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可以“极高”,假如... Apr 16, 2013

[quote]ysun wrote:

Loise wrote:

不过,认为每千字60元的翻译报酬“算是极高也不为过”的说法,我倒还是第一次听说。用一句俗话来形容就是,被别人卖了,却还帮着别人数钱。



如果从版税方面考虑的话,他完全有资格说60元翻译报酬极高这句话,当然前提是他翻译的每本书都能畅销....


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
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版税则另当别论 Apr 16, 2013

Marvin Sun wrote:

ysun wrote:

不过,认为每千字60元的翻译报酬“算是极高也不为过”的说法,我倒还是第一次听说。用一句俗话来形容就是,被别人卖了,却还帮着别人数钱。


如果从版税方面考虑的话,他完全有资格说60元翻译报酬极高这句话,当然前提是他翻译的每本书都能畅销....

如果说书能畅销、版税高,那又是另一回事,不能因此就说每千字60元的翻译报酬“算是极高也不为过”。另外,从他下面这段话看来,翻译者未必都能拿到版税。否则,他就不会提那个“需按图书销量付酬”的建议了。
http://site.douban.com/179084/widget/notes/12371831/note/257869668/
1、翻译稿酬问题

首先,翻译活动归根到底是一种生产劳动,而生产劳动的报酬,则取决于此种劳动所产生的价值。翻译稿酬也应该取决于译者的翻译劳动所带来的价值。就当年图书出版行业的情况来看,千字60元的报酬是合理的。

其次,按字付酬的翻译稿酬制度并不是完美无缺的。译文质量有高低,图书销售有好坏,不能一概而论。首先,翻译稿酬必须起到奖优惩劣的作用,而非不管稿件质量高低,统统千字60元。其次,需按图书销量付酬,而非无论卖1本还是100万本,统统付相同的稿酬。

我认为,无论书是否畅销,中国的翻译报酬都应提高。我相信这里的同行不会反对我这话。当然,如果不提,与我本人也没什么关系。凡是来自中国的询价,我都是大致瞄一眼就一律删掉的。


 
Marvin Sun
Marvin Sun  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 19:17
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站着说话不腰疼 Apr 16, 2013

ysun wrote:

Marvin Sun wrote:

ysun wrote:

不过,认为每千字60元的翻译报酬“算是极高也不为过”的说法,我倒还是第一次听说。用一句俗话来形容就是,被别人卖了,却还帮着别人数钱。


如果从版税方面考虑的话,他完全有资格说60元翻译报酬极高这句话,当然前提是他翻译的每本书都能畅销....

如果说书能畅销、版税高,那又是另一回事,不能因此就说每千字60元的翻译报酬“算是极高也不为过”。另外,从他下面这段话看来,翻译者未必都能拿到版税。否则,他就不会提那个“需按图书销量付酬”的建议了。
http://site.douban.com/179084/widget/notes/12371831/note/257869668/
1、翻译稿酬问题

首先,翻译活动归根到底是一种生产劳动,而生产劳动的报酬,则取决于此种劳动所产生的价值。翻译稿酬也应该取决于译者的翻译劳动所带来的价值。就当年图书出版行业的情况来看,千字60元的报酬是合理的。

其次,按字付酬的翻译稿酬制度并不是完美无缺的。译文质量有高低,图书销售有好坏,不能一概而论。首先,翻译稿酬必须起到奖优惩劣的作用,而非不管稿件质量高低,统统千字60元。其次,需按图书销量付酬,而非无论卖1本还是100万本,统统付相同的稿酬。

我认为,无论书是否畅销,中国的翻译报酬都应提高。我相信这里的同行不会反对我这话。当然,如果不提,与我本人也没什么关系。凡是来自中国的询价,我都是大致瞄一眼就一律删掉的。



他现在的状态应该是站着说话不腰痛,因为他可能版税拿得比较多,然后小有成就,所以容易大言不惭,无非博人眼球而已。

身为译员,自然要给翻译行业的人说话(至少应该实话实说),提高整个行业中从业人员的生存质量。国内不少人为了出名或更出名,往往倾向于通过奇谈怪论的方式来博人眼球,从而提高其知名度——国内“专家”这个词就是这么毁掉的——然后通过自己的知名度谋取行业外的利益,比如去演讲、剪彩、出席一些特殊聚会等,来钱即容易又风光,不必在本行业内再做牛做马。

一个人做到行业的顶端(或普罗大众眼中的顶端),往往会脱离这个行业,具备了另外一种身份,这时候说话往往容易脱离实际,因为总是考虑到说话的结果并权衡说话能得到的利益。国内医生也好、律师也好、教师也好,不当领导时或许还能勤勤恳恳,但是一当领导基本都成了面目可憎的人,溜须拍马、阿谀奉承的事没少干。

[Edited at 2013-04-16 03:08 GMT]


Min Fang
 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
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Local time: 05:17
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对呀 Apr 16, 2013

Marvin Sun wrote:

身为译员,自然要给翻译行业的人说话(至少应该实话实说),提高整个行业中从业人员的生存质量。

不然就是忘本了!现在,连有关政府部门都准备修订那本关于稿酬的“老皇历”,他却还在那里宣扬“千字60元的报酬是合理的”。明武宗时宦官刘瑾让侍从小太监贾桂坐下陪他说话,贾桂不肯坐,还说:"奴才站惯了,不想坐”。大概就是因为“站着说话不腰疼”吧?


 
Loise
Loise
France
Local time: 12:17
French to Chinese
+ ...
如果付他每千字100欧元的稿酬…… Apr 16, 2013

ysun wrote:

Loise wrote:

事实上,速度没有价值,严谨无误的翻译才值得自豪。

确实有人以日译万字而自豪,也有人以不能日译万字而自叹不如。不少人就是因为翻译价格太低,就以速度来弥补。不过,认为每千字60元的翻译报酬“算是极高也不为过”的说法,我倒还是第一次听说。用一句俗话来形容就是,被别人卖了,却还帮着别人数钱。

当有人质疑“日译万字”的做法时,也有人说,不能因自己百米跑得慢而质疑世界冠军的纪录。跑百米怎能与翻译相提并论呢?这实在是一种很荒唐的比喻。我倒也想问他一句,能不能因为自己的翻译质量差而认为别人的质量也差呢?


……那么,他就不必日译万字了吧?
每千字60欧元都让人嫌少了,更何况这每千字60元还是人民币呢……干翻译这一行,真是字字皆幸苦……

[Edited at 2013-04-16 04:03 GMT]


 
Jinhang Wang
Jinhang Wang  Identity Verified
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关于一句话的两种译法的比较与探讨 Apr 16, 2013


  原文:In consequence, I’m inclined to reserve all judgments, a
habit that has opened up many curious natures to me and also made me
the victim of not a few veteran bores.

  译文:久而久之,我就惯于对所有的人都保留判断,这个习惯既使得许多有
怪僻的人肯跟我讲心里话,也使我成为不少爱唠叨的惹人厌烦的人的受害者。
(第1页)
  参考译文:结果,我习惯了不做任何评价;这种脾气让我了解到很多种古怪
的性格,来找我的无聊老兵也非止一两个。



前面大家对两位翻译家的一些译法做了不少的探讨,让我也产生了一些兴趣。我想就这一句话也尝试做些探讨。我之所以要讨论这句话,一是因为它很短;二是因为发现了不少的问题,觉得有讨论的必要。

我仔细地研究了这句话,发现新译对原意误解颇多,而且对原译是一种亵渎。具体情况包括:

1. natures 的理解。这里新译者显然误解了 nature 的意思,nature 这里应该是 a person of a specified character. 《新牛津英汉双解大词典》。就是具有某种特定性格的人。curious natures 就是古怪的人。原译者的理解无疑是正确的。而新译者竟然把它理解为“性格”,这显然是不对的,因为“性格”这个词不是可数名词,不能用复数的,这一点在《新牛津英汉双解大词典》中也有解释:

■[mass noun] inborn or hereditary characteristics as an influence on or determinant of personality.

其中明明白白标明是不可数名词。

2. veteran 的理解。新译者把它误解为 “老兵”,而原译者的理解是正确的,虽然表达得啰嗦一点。具体可参考的资料如下:

http://www.antimoon.com/forum/t5626.htm

http://www.englishforums.com/English/VeteranBore/ccbpv/post.htm

这里的 veteran 主要是强调 “老” 的意思,但并不是老兵。


3. open up to 的理解。这里还是原译者的理解正确。可参考以下链接:

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/open-up_1

意思是:to talk more about your personal feelings and experiences

就是敞开心扉,向别人倾诉你的心情、感受等。


从这一句翻译来看,新译曲解甚多,原译无疑正确地传达了原意,不过显得有点冗长。我在他们翻译的基础上,尝试给出如下译文:

结果是,我倾向于保留所有意见,这种习性既使得许多古怪的人肯给我讲心里话,也让我成了不少无聊的老讨厌鬼的受害者。


欢迎拍砖







[Edited at 2013-04-16 14:04 GMT]

[Edited at 2013-04-16 14:12 GMT]

[Edited at 2013-04-16 14:16 GMT]

[Edited at 2013-04-16 14:43 GMT]


 
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