engltrans Nov 3, 2009:

TO ASKER: ...and still high society lioness seems more acceptable!

Michael Korovkin Nov 2, 2009:

Tah, James That's exactly what I meant. It should be fun – not oneupmanship. And I find particularly disconcerning putting a "disagree" with comments like "no way" for an explanation. Anyway... let's continue to have fun! Cheers!

Mark Berelekhis (asker) Nov 2, 2009:

For what it's worth, that is my philosophy as well As it seems to be for most Kudozians.

James McVay Nov 2, 2009:

I agree with Michael At the risk of prolonging a discussion that is certainly out of place here and probably unnecessary, as well, I'd like to add my 2 cents' worth. Unlike a lot of the other Kudoz languge pairs, this one is remarkably civil, due in large part to the fact that contributors don't overuse "disagree" and don't insult one another. My personal rule is the same as Michael's -- if I contribute an answer to a question, I never disagree with other contributors. And I rarely comment on their anwers, but when I do, I always pick "neutral." Beyond the issue of manners, use of "disagree" simply smacks of trying to stack the voting in one's own favor.

Michael Korovkin Nov 2, 2009:

No way, Kozze, Mark, baby! It was YOU who was indignant at my inattentive reading of entries (of which, I admit, I'm at times guilty due to excessive agility of mind or bubbleheadedness – depends who's talkin'), an' I wus tellin' ya to cool it!!!
Be it as it may, take Mashka off the forum ASAP. Let sleeping party fiends sleep! Cheers!

Tevah_Trans Nov 2, 2009:

Mark are you just waking up? You're so funny, seems like you've just woken up, from your comment! Even with the time change! You must have been one busy socialite last night!!

Mark Berelekhis (asker) Nov 2, 2009:

Hah, it might seem as such... Though it's no more than an update. I was planning on closing it after weighing in, but wasn't allowed to.

Dan_Brennan Nov 2, 2009:

Was that a call for closing remarks? Last orders at the bar? The deciding round?

Mark Berelekhis (asker) Nov 2, 2009:

One more hour before I can close the question .

Mark Berelekhis (asker) Nov 2, 2009:

So this is what Euros are up to when we Americans are snoozing! Actually, this is quite a fascinating discussion. If memory serves me right, in a similar discussion mere months back I was Michael and Michael was Dan. It's funny how circular life on Kudoz is.

Anyway, I didn't mean to suggest that my Masha is a Hilton clone, my apologies if I did. She does come from money and enjoys plenty of media attention thanks to her social standing and partying habits, but she is also an Ivy leaguer and generally a better person. As such, I wouldn't want to lump her with Paris for good.

Dan_Brennan Nov 2, 2009:

" -> I know, Tevah. Says a lot about the media too! O tempora, o mores! From Mme d'Epine to Ms. Hilton; from Marcel Proust to Dan Brown! I insist: it's too flattering for her. But t'ain't about her really, so mine might be a moot point."

Perhaps if widespread media usage won't convince you that you are wrong, the CED definition will:

Definition
socialite noun
/ˈsəʊ.ʃəl.aɪt/US pronunciation symbol/ˈsoʊ.ʃə.laɪt/ n [C]
a person, usually of high social class, who is famous because they go to a lot of parties and social events which are reported in the newspapers.

Sounds like a 100% match for Ms Hilton to me...:-)

Dan_Brennan Nov 2, 2009:

Prepositions Michael, you appear to be having trouble with your prepositions today. Perhaps you have a hangover? If so can I recommend a split hair of the dog that bit you?

Dan_Brennan Nov 2, 2009:

socialite Someone suggested that socialite wouldn't apply to Ms Hilton because it implies a degree of class that would not suit her.

In fact, socialite is mildly perjorative. It suggests someone precisely of Ms Hilton's profile: a bit of an airhead, normally someone who comes from money, whose sole purpose in life is to be seen at A-list events, engage in a social whirl, spend daddy's money etc...

Society girl is broadly synonymous but less judgemental.

Michael Korovkin Nov 2, 2009:

Mashka spotykaias' breded (s pokhmelia?), etc... I might be old–fashioned TO the extreme, but somehow "socialite" sounds outta place in this context, dunnit? Unless one's intention is to be sarcastic.

To MISHA: hear, hear! That's why there are lotsa Mishas on the forum but only one THE!

Dan_Brennan Nov 2, 2009:

Tevah That's fair enough. And personally, I agree: socialite is the best alternative on offer. I do find it odd that anyone should take such offence at being told that their suggested translations are not suitable. I am happy to be told when I am wrong and be given the chance to learn something. The Misha's assertion that Kudoz forums are for shmoozing and not for seeking the truth is, if true, something of a betrayal of their intended purpose, I would have thought.

Tevah_Trans Nov 2, 2009:

Michael and Dan... You guys stop arguing, ok?
Dan, although I wouldn't put myself in the same category as Nabokov, I consider myself the native speaker of both English and Russian due to my upbringing, education, etc - which at least puts me in the same category as you.

And I think socialite describes what the asker is looking for better than any other terms given the context he provided. My opinion, though, is worth as many "agree" points as yours and Michaels, and I am ok with that. I don't want to take away anybody's points, so unless a suggestion is diametrically opposed to the source, I probably will withhold my "disagree" usage.

But this is a forum, and everyone who contributes here does so (hopefully) with the intent to help and provide meaningful suggestions. To that end, gentlemen, please kiss and make up. :)

Dan_Brennan Nov 2, 2009:

birthright "1. Claiming the birthright: as a "native speaker I know better"... than Conrad, Nabokov et al. Okay, good for you. But somehow it doesn't dovetail with your "quest for truth". You presume to possess it by definition – by the virtue of your birth. Very British that, I say, what? :)"

That assertion is as disingenuous as it is preposterous. I have claimed nothing by birthright. My claim to some expertise here comes from 17 years as a professional translator. You made reference to unwritten rules. One of the cardinal unwritten rules of professional translation is that one should, unless 100% bilingual (which few translators are), translate INTO one's native tongue. Therefore I do claim an advantage over non-native speakers when it comes to translating Russian into English; just as I would cede to competent native Russian linguists in matters of translating from English into Russian. This being the case, the only one exhibiting arrogant tendencies here is you, my friend.

As an addendum, I note with great interest that, on your profile, you describe yourself as a native speaker of both Russian and English. While your English is clearly exceptionally good, you're not a nativ

The Misha Nov 2, 2009:

I love a good disagree as much as the other guy, and I sure as hell am not a stranger to using them but ... unfortunately, this whole thing is NOT only about the "quest for the truth" (or, rather, not at all about the said quest), it's first and foremost about plain old professional schmoozing. Otherwise, why would most of us hang around this wonderful place that advertises rich, satisfying jobs at $.05 per word? Thus, manners matter, truth or not. As it seems now, I will hardly feel an urge to share a job with someone on a particularly cocky quest for whatever - British or not, native or not. Plenty of nicer folks around.

Dan_Brennan Nov 2, 2009:

With due respect... ... to Andrey and Engltrans, I probably wouldn't put them in the same category as Nabokov and Conrad.

Dan_Brennan Nov 2, 2009:

Condescending to the extreme. at the risk of splitting hairs, it should be "condescending in the extreme" :-)

But, more to the point: there is absolutely nothing condescending about my responses. They were, in each case, a statement of fact. Do you have any idea how comical and absurd "secular lioness" sounds to a native English speaker? It was "a very strange suggestion". As for "madone des sleepings", that would never in a million years serve as a translation in an English text. Sometimes the truth hurts.

Michael Korovkin Nov 2, 2009:

Here we go, Dan: I just knew it'll come to that! 1. Claiming the birthright: as a "native speaker I know better"... than Conrad, Nabokov et al. Okay, good for you. But somehow it doesn't dovetail with your "quest for truth". You presume to possess it by definition – by the virtue of your birth. Very British that, I say, what? :)

2. Your disagree to engltrans is "never in a million years!". your disagree to Andrey "very strange suggestion". Condescending to the extreme.

Michael Korovkin Nov 2, 2009:

Here we go, Dan: I just knew it'll come to that! 1. Claiming the birthright: as a "native speaker I know better"... than Conrad, Nabokov et al. Okay, good for you. But somehow it doesn't dovetail with your "quest for truth". You presume to possess it by definition – by the virtue of your birth. Very British that, I say, what? :)

2. Your disagree to engltrans is "never in a million years!". your disagree to Andrey "very strange suggestion". Condescending to the extreme.

Dan_Brennan Nov 2, 2009:

Michael, just for the record, I didn't post a 'disagree' without qualifying my reasons, though perhaps I didn't offer enough detail.<br><br>a social butterfly, as the metaphor suggests, tends to refer to someone who flits from group to group/event to event (where the events are the "flowers"). socialite/society girl would definitely be a social butterfly, but a social butterfly would not necessarily be a socialite/society girl. An It girl is someone, most likely a socialite/society girl (eg paris hilton, tara palmer tomkinson) who has become a darling of the media/gossip and celebrity columns. Hope this helps :-)

Andrew Vdovin Nov 2, 2009:

The discussion seems to be growing funny once it's come to the no-no disagree point. Away with disagrees, what the heck! :-))))

Michael Korovkin Nov 2, 2009:

C'mon, Dan, don't be so drammatic! There's substance and there's form, and it's often a particular ethics that imbues one with the other. A "tradition" is not a matter of a coldly rational explanation: a "beutral" comment from a fellow answerer is a NICE way of saying "I disagree". As far as unsubstantiated "disagree", that's a different kettle of fish altogether, and resent it as you may – a cardinal sin: you can give a positive review in unsubstantiated superlatives but a negative one MUST be reasoned out/sunstantiated: otherwise you'd be playing god. "A quest for truth" sounds wonerful though. I like your enthusiasm. :)

Dan_Brennan Nov 2, 2009:

splitting hairs ...is surely the role of a good translator.

Pedantry may be a 'cardinal sin' in some fields, but in translation, it is probably something of a virtue. As a native speaker of English I am pretty confident that I have a good grasp of the meaning of 'Social butterfly'.

Dan_Brennan Nov 2, 2009:

Dear Michael,

If you check my profile/Blueboard entry you'll see that I am not a 'new kid on the block' as you put it. Why on earth does KudoZ have a 'disagree' function if it is not to be used? If I disagree with a suggestion, I will state that I disagree. I realise that this might offend egos, and might discourage others from agreeing with my own suggestions, but if the quest is for truth, then political voting should go out of the window. Otherwise, surely, the risk is that KudoZ is reduced to a linguistic equivalent of the Eurovision Song Contest, where people vote for their mates or those who affirm their own view of the world :-). So I deeply resent being told that I have committed any kind of sin by expressing a view, let alone a 'cardinal sin'.

Michael Korovkin Nov 2, 2009:

Dear Dan It looks like you're a new guy on the block, so I will take the liberty of making an extra-linguistic, but intra-curricular, comment. Apart from kudos rules that are written (and gleefully broken by all of us, moderators included!), there are the unwritten ones (broken rather rarely). And one of them is: when supplying an answer oneself, refarin from putting "disagree" to the fellow answerers: put "neutral" instead. An even more cardinal sin is puttinng a "disagree" and then supplying a Chechovian reason for it, like "this can never be because this can't ever be" Generally, when supplying a suggestion one should avoid appointing oneself a universal arbiter. No offence, eh? Cheers.

Michael Korovkin Nov 2, 2009:

I'll explain why I used social butterfly It's Because of Mark's mention of Paris Hilton. To me, "socialite" conveys a certain amount of class, thus being totally unapplicable to the vulgar ... вошка like Ms. Hilton. Social butterfly sounds, to me, lighter and also somewhat less flattering.

Tevah_Trans Nov 2, 2009:

And because you are not a socialite, you probably aren't hurrying to say your hail maries in the morning either...

Viachaslau Nov 1, 2009:

thumbs up, Angela!! I'm a party animal myself. Going clubs after another translation project is finished - just love it!! But there's no way i'm a socialite.

Angela Greenfield Nov 1, 2009:

I am going to go into some personal stuff now... My son's friends call him a party animal, which doesn't make him a socialite. :-)
My daughter's teachers call her a social butterfly, which doesn't make her a socialite, either. :-)
In both cases, though both of them like to be the center of attention, the circles in which they circulate are not high or bohemian enough for them to qualify for a "socialite" status. This is the difference between the offered choices. IMHO

Mark Berelekhis (asker) Nov 1, 2009:

Great discussion Misha is right about 'social lioness,' it just doesn't work in a contemporary context. Considered Michael's 'social butterfly' as well (surprised it hasn't gotten much peer support here). 'Socialite' totally slipped my mind and seems like a solid choice.

Olga B Nov 1, 2009:

Анжеле Спасибо. Теперь это действительно лингвистическое объяснение, к которому можно прислушаться :)

Angela Greenfield Nov 1, 2009:

Ольга, society lioness в современном английском языке Соединенных Штатов, если и используется, то только на факультетах русской литературы в связи с Толстым, Гончаровым и Пушкиным. В современном русском языке же у этого выражения нет антикварной отдушки. Семантические значения socialite и "светской львицы" совершенно идентичны. Отсюда и мое заявление. Я не хотела вас обидеть.

Olga B Nov 1, 2009:

Анжеле А почему не может быть несколько (даже не две возможности) передать одно и то же значение?
Надо ли что-либо доказывать? Ведь автор может просто выбрать.

Angela Greenfield Nov 1, 2009:

Not that Wiki is an ultimate authority, but... Пойдите по этой ссылке: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Светская_львица<br>Затем слева внизу выберите English, и получите ту же самую статью на английском. Название статьи Socialite. Что и требовалось доказать.

Tevah_Trans Nov 1, 2009:

The Misha is right I think it's Socialite; think Paris Hilton

The Misha Nov 1, 2009:

Mark, lioness doesn't work It's a Russian metaphor all right that does not seem to sit very well in English, IMHO. Take your own pick of socialite or part animal (which seems to be warranted in this context). Cheers!