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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

tribunes

English translation:

[everyday language] gallery [formal technical term: tribune]

Added to glossary by Tony M
Sep 29, 2013 07:44
11 yrs ago
2 viewers *
French term

tribunes

French to English Other Architecture Parts of a church or cathedral
"Elle se caractérise par son élévation à quatre étages : rez-de-chaussée, ***tribunes***, triforium aveugle, clair étage, et par les décorations ornant les chapiteaux de ses colonnes : végétaux, animaux, représentations humaines."

I imagine these are sitting areas, and I would call them "galleries", but I need the correct term.

I have googled extensively to no avail.
Proposed translations (English)
3 +3 gallery
4 +2 tribunes/apses
References
tribune
Change log

Oct 13, 2013 08:40: Tony M Created KOG entry

Discussion

Conor McAuley (asker) Oct 1, 2013:
Hahaha! Are you any relation of Davy? ;-)
Christopher Crockett Oct 1, 2013:
Yes, that organ loft/gallery http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/74800726.jp...

is very nicely done --looks to be purpose-built in the 17th c. to hold the organ (or at least an older structure remodeled en "gout moderne"), but it blends in quite well with the older building, the pipes wonderfully framing the rose window behind.

I know nothing about Tournai, but the more I look at it, that west end is probably essentially 12th c., with a "narthex" on the first floor, just inside the doors, and (probably) with a chapel above --usually such "high" chapels were dedicated to the archangel St. Michael. The chapel was suppressed in the 17th (?) c. and the spiffy new organ put in its place.

"That dog won't hunt" is not original with me (I heard it from a Good ole Boy politician from Lou'sana), Conor, but I have copyrighted its use, so I expect to receive appropriate royalties forthwith. And, if your son uses it when he grows up, tell him he owes me as well.
Conor McAuley (asker) Oct 1, 2013:
Thanks for all the help, folks. I'm afraid church architecture doesn't float my boat, apart from aesthetic pleasure from the overall effect. I like "That dog won't hunt", and may be annoying my family with it!
Christopher Crockett Oct 1, 2013:
No, Conor, I'd be careful with "arcade" --which simply means "a horizontal series of arches" and actually applies to two out of the three stories of the interior of Tournai: the "main arcade, (ground floor), the wide and open horizontal arcade of the tribune (second level), and the arcade of the triforium (3rd level).

Certainly allowances should be made for the "skill level" of your target audience; however, your translation should be as accurate as possible, with a brief explanation of terms which might be too technical for non-specialists (education being an on-going process, after all).

Calling the tribune an "apse" just won't do --"That dog won't Hunt," as we say in Southern Indiana.

I'd suggest using something like "...it's four story elevation, with a main arcade on the first floor, a large and wide tribune gallery on the second floor, the dark triforium arcade on the third level, all surmounted by a clerestory above..."
Tony M Oct 1, 2013:
@ Asker Not really specially clever research, I fear — once we knew which church it was, I simply did a Google image search on it, and waded through the numerous photos till I found something that illustrates what your text was referring to.
All the other clever research was by Miranda and Chris, to both of whom all credit is due!
Tony M Oct 1, 2013:
@ Chris Thanks for that! I love the way they have built the organ loft at the same level as the side 'tribunes', and have also arranged the pipes so as not to obscure the rose window (i.e. it would be more usual to have the taller pipes in the middle, getting shorter towards the sides)
Christopher Crockett Oct 1, 2013:
yes, Tony, and the "glazed" nature of the tribune (which can be deduced from the light falling on the compound pier in the upper left of that interior shot), is more easily seen in this exterior one

http://mag.trolbooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/tournai....

where the 4 story elevation is also clear (providing you know that the roof over the gallery is hiding a triforium beneath it.

Hey, Tony, look, there's also an "organ tribune" at the West end:

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/74800726.jp...

not medieval, apparently.
Conor McAuley (asker) Oct 1, 2013:
"Arcade" is definitely the term that comes to mind when looking at the photo.
Conor McAuley (asker) Oct 1, 2013:
Tony, thanks for the photo -- your research skills are clearly better than mine (although I don't think a photo would have helped me to resolve the issue on my own). The audience is "lay", no pun intended -- tourists/visitors.
Tony M Oct 1, 2013:
Clearly visible in this shot http://www.netvacances.ca/photos/attractions/25/25-9.jpg
Conor McAuley (asker) Oct 1, 2013:
I would have preferred to have had to specify, but the catherdral in question is the one at Tournai in Belgium.
Christopher Crockett Oct 1, 2013:
choirs in tribunes? This is an interesting point, Miranda.

The use to which tribunes were *originally* [i.e., in the 12th c.] put is, as far as I know, unknown, and I suppose that there could well have been "choirs" up there, at least for special occasions. But Bach is quite a distance from from the 12th c., with a *lot* of liturgical water flowing under lots of bridges in lots of countries in between.

I mentioned y'day the existence of chapels in tribunes --in addition, perhaps, to simple altars on external walls. These would certainly imply liturgical services, which would no doubt have included "processions" as well as (again, perhaps) choirs.

Medieval liturgies are recorded in service books (called "Ordinaries"), many of which survive from the 12th c. through to the end of the Middle Ages (and beyond). These are typically somewhat detailed.

They are not at all my specialty, but I have never heard of a *medieval* reference to a choir in a tribune (nor seen one in an illumination or painting from the M.A.).

That certainly don't mean that there ain't one, however.
Christopher Crockett Oct 1, 2013:
yet more clarifications I am assuming --perhaps wrongly (Conor?)-- from the description of this building that it is an "Early Gothic" [a modern construct, btw] one, an example of the kind of "experimentation" which went on in northern France between c. 1150 and 1200, before the style stabilized into the "High Gothic" [another modern construct] formula seen at Chartres, Reims, Amiens, etc.

Some buildings of this period do have four story elevations; i.e., with "tribunes" --in the rather precise sense I've defined/explained them below.

The use of "tribune" for "apse" is utterly unknown to me [I've NEVER seen it] --certainly in the Art Historical literature dealing with the Middle Ages, and is *most definitely* NOT the case in the building under consideration here (no matter what period it may date from), as the text makes perfectly clear.

It appears that tribunes were (at least sometimes) open to the public, but, as best we can tell, were devoid of any sort of seating arrangements --there are no representations of benches or chairs inside churches before the mid-19th c., to the best of my knowledge.

Some silly prejudice about being seated in the Presence of the Creator of the Universe, I suppose....
Miranda Joubioux (X) Oct 1, 2013:
@Colin and @Tony, you are both probably right, but sometimes you can make silly mistakes by not knowing which church or cathedral you are talking about.
Posh seats? I'm not so sure. In the period of Bach, the choir would sing from the gallery. As I said, knowing the period is important.
Conor McAuley (asker) Oct 1, 2013:
Very true, Miranda. I don't have a picture, unfortunately. I think it's a fair assumption that the "tribune" is where people sit, "upstairs". The posh seats...
Tony M Oct 1, 2013:
@ Miranda Not really THAT ambiguous: it is in the context of describing the four levels of this building, and we know it is above the ground floor and below the triforium and clerestory, which certainly rules out a number of possibilities.
Miranda Joubioux (X) Oct 1, 2013:
Ambiguous You really want to be careful about the period and what exactly is being referred to. A picture would be ideal.
http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/tribune
Christopher Crockett Sep 30, 2013:
some clarifications (cont'd) Soissons, transept:

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4107/5104337816_aee1345c99_z.j...

There is a large chapel up at the tribune level:

http://www.stanparryphotography.com/Architecture/Cathedrals/...

which is also beautifully "glazed."

Normally, the back wall of the triforium is solid --the roof of the side aisle is leaning up against the nave wall just there-- but sometimes triforia were, like tribunes, also sometimes glazed, creating what is called a "diaphanous wall" effect:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3406/3522549111_f865247709.jp...

http://web.cortland.edu/flteach/civ/voyage/troyes7.jpg

In order to do this, another solution to the problem of roofing the side aisles has to be found, which can be kinda tricky:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Amiens_Ca...

Tribunes could be put to other purposes, as well.

If my rusty memory serves me rightly, Count Charles the Good of Flanders was assassinated in a tribune chapel in Bruges in 1127 --so tribunes could also be classified as "high crime areas" as well, I suppose.
Christopher Crockett Sep 30, 2013:
some clarifications Though they might look somewhat similar --from a distance and at first glance-- a "tribune" is easily distinguished from a "triforium."

The latter is merely a passage *within the thickness of the wall* --or, in the case of a "blind triforium" ("triforium aveugle"), only an articulated arcade at the triforium level (no passage at all).

Triforia (I suppose that's the plural form) were used to give access to the upper levels of the building, for purposes of maintenance or for doing stuff like hanging tapestries:

http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/thumbnail/229781/1/The-Corona...

In a pinch (like during that 1654 event) they *could* serve as standing room for an overflow crowd, but usually they were interdit au public.

Tribunes, otOh, are, indeed, "galleries" over --and as wide as-- the side isles of the ground floor. They were, more or less, open to the public, and most probably had altars up there, some in chapels.

Most of the present cathedral of Soissons has a "High Gothic" three story elevation (main arcade, triforium, clerestory), but the earliest part of the building has a 4 part elevation:
Conor McAuley (asker) Sep 29, 2013:
Thanks Clompy!
Clompy Sep 29, 2013:
You've probably already looked at these, but just in case...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribune_(architecture)
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribune_(architecture)
maybe a good starting point

Proposed translations

+3
1 hr
French term (edited): tribune
Selected

gallery

They may or may not have tiered seating; if this were a Protestant (or even Anglican) church in the UK (and probably elsewhere too!), then tiered seating was quite common; but in older churches, I think less so.

Cf. the use of 'tribune' for the 'organ loft', which is a generally flat kind of gallery, despite the name, which in other contexts in FR may suggest tiered seating (cf. sports stadium: the 'stands', even if all-seater!)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days7 hrs (2013-10-01 14:51:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

OK, now we know what and where it is, it is clearly an arcaded gallery; I don't know about this particular cathedral, but in some churches this sort of gallery was used by monks, in order to segregate them from the general congregation; they sometimes even had separate access from an adjoining monastery, for example.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days7 hrs (2013-10-01 14:53:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I totally agree with those who have said that 'tribune' remains the correct technical term in EN; however, depending on the intended readership, I suspect that this might be more understandable for a lay readership.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days7 hrs (2013-10-01 14:57:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

From the FR ref. kindly provided for us by Miranda, here is the relevant definition:
...
b) ARCHIT. RELIG.
α) [Au Moy. Âge]
...
− Galerie haute située au-dessus des bas-côtés et ouvrant sur la nef par le triforium (d'apr. Nér. Hist. Art 1985).
...
Peer comment(s):
agree B D Finch
1 day 45 mins
Thanks, B! :-)
agree Christopher Crockett : Sometimes called a "gallery," but technically always a "tribune." In a medieval context, never an "organ loft," though, in [much] later centuries the organ *might* be attached to the nave wall up there (or at the clerestory level).
1 day 3 hrs
Thanks, Chris! I only mentioned the 'organ loft' in order to draw the parallel meaning of 'tribune' in that context.
agree Miranda Joubioux (X)
2 days 5 hrs
Thanks, Miranda! :-)
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+2
1 hr

tribunes/apses


http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/tribune

noun

the apse of a Christian basilica that contains the bishop's throne
the throne itself
a gallery or raised area in a church

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistoia_Cathedral

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Note added at 1 hr (2013-09-29 08:59:55 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Oh I see you have been given some links in Disc. "Tribune" can be kept in English though "apse" would be better known.

And here it actually more likely means

GALLERY

since it's below the clerestory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribune_(architecture)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-09-29 09:01:55 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

http://www.athenapub.com/14glossary.htm

Tribune Gallery: a tribune gallery is the elevated part of a gallery which contains seats.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-09-29 09:28:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------


the word tribune has changed meaning several times but the old meanings are retained in many instances and many examples can be found by Googling

here again it quite clearly says apse

http://saintpetersbasilica.org/Interior/Tribune/Tribune.htm
Note from asker:
The church is part-Romanesque, part Gothic, apparently.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : Surely not 'apse'? That's 'abside', and is something quite different! / An apse may sometimes be called a 'tribune' as it may have a type of raised platform: however, other types of 'tribune' could never be called an apse. So not a synonym that way round.
17 mins
yes, I did change my mind to gallery here in this context. It's a word that often keeps old meaning of apse/throne/raised platform
neutral Evans (X) : With Tony on this. Tribunes and apses in a church are quite different animals.
25 mins
yes, see note above
agree Helen Shiner : Depending on the age of the church, this is the correct terminology, I.e. if it is Romanesque or Medieval: http://www.pitt.edu/~medart/menuglossary/gallery.htm Though not apse in this context.
36 mins
Many thanks Helen, yes, it's a gallery here
agree GILLES MEUNIER
1 hr
merci bien Gilou:-)
neutral Daryo : can agree nor disagree: "tribune gallery" is fine // "apse" in a church is definitiely not about vertical layering // you can see an apse on the plan from above, not on an elevation.// two words next to each other are not necessarily synonyms
2 hrs
I never intended "apse" to be for an elevation. Changed to "gallery when I read bit about 4 stories. But in other cases tribune can mean apse. And you certainly don't need to talk down to me about synonyms!
neutral Christopher Crockett : A neutral, collegial Negative. I've never seen any confusion between "gallery" and "apse" before. No "talking down" necessary, folks --Chill Out. They're just Very Different Animals.
1 day 4 hrs
There's no confusion here either. I never said "apse" and "gallery" are synonyms. I think "tribunes" or "tribune gallery/galleries" is best here, (both of which I posted before Tony BTW)
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

2 days 15 mins
Reference:

tribune

1. A slightly elevated platform or dais for a speaker.
2. The apse of a church

Dictionary of Architecture & Construction (Harris)

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Note added at 2 days5 hrs (2013-10-01 12:52:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

This reference might also come in useful
http://www.athenapub.com/14glossary.htm

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days5 hrs (2013-10-01 13:03:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

French definitions of 'tribune'
http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/tribune
Peer comments on this reference comment:
neutral Tony M : Sad, though, that this misses out the other meaning involved here :-(
14 mins
disagree Christopher Crockett : Sorry to go Negative on you, M. This "tribune = apse" nonsense must be Knipped in the Budd. I don't really care what some non-historically based dictionary says, the use of "tribune" in the sense of "apse" is totally unknown to me and is not true here.
4 hrs
If you look at the French reference I put in my discussion post you will see that although not necessarily relevant here, apse is indeed one of the meanings. I'm going to put that reference here too.
Something went wrong...
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