Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
lui reprocher sa propre faute
English translation:
he cannot be blamed for his own fault
French term
lui reprocher sa propre faute
Soit la victime est conductrice, alors la faute de M. X est à l'origine exclusive de l'accident, soit la victime est piétonne lors de l'accident et l'on ne peut lui reprocher sa propre faute à l'exception de sa faute inexcusable, qui se définit comme une faute volontaire, d'une exceptionnelle gravité, exposant sans raison valable son auteur à un danger dont il aurait dû avoir conscience.
Thank you!
Oct 5, 2018 19:00: Rachel Fell changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"
Oct 8, 2018 11:06: B D Finch Created KOG entry
PRO (3): Daryo, Tony M, B D Finch
Non-PRO (3): Yvonne Gallagher, AllegroTrans, Rachel Fell
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Proposed translations
he/they cannot be blamed for his/their own fault
I think that SafeTex is completely wrong in his interpretation that " the writer wants to suggest that she is wholly at fault for the second "event". On the contrary:
" l'on ne peut lui reprocher sa propre faute à l'exception de sa faute inexcusable, qui se définit comme une faute volontaire, d'une exceptionnelle gravité, exposant sans raison valable son auteur à un danger dont il aurait dû avoir conscience."
In spite of the missing "pas", it is clear from how the sentence continues " à l'exception de sa faute inexcusable …", that the writer is saying that the victim cannot be blamed for his own fault unless the fault is inexcusable because being deliberate, exceptionally serious etc. This extract actually does not go on to say whether or not those circumstances applied. Presumably, your text does go on to make a statement about that.
An example of a fault to which those exceptions applied would be that of a pedestrian who suddenly stepped into the road without looking (but with no suicidal intention), when an oncoming car was too close for the driver to be able to stop in time to avoid hitting them. In that case, the pedestrian would have been responsible for "une faute volontaire, d'une exceptionnelle gravité, exposant sans raison valable son auteur à un danger dont il aurait dû avoir conscience."
disagree |
SafeTex
: Same problem as other answer. You CAN be blamed for your own fault.
6 hrs
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The point is to translate the source text, not to substitute your own ideas. This is about insurance law, not your personal philosophy.
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agree |
Daryo
: can only agree - basically the same interpretation / I did hesitate between "fault" and "mistake" -
15 hrs
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Thanks Daryo
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agree |
Tony M
: From asker's extra context, we do seem to know it was a man? I agree about 'fault' (see my discussion post), though I'm a little uneasy about 'blamed for their fault'... Dear me, sorry, read that completely the wrong way round... before coffee!
16 hrs
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Thank's Tony. The term "blame" is used in insurance and is distinct from "fault". Unless the Asker made a mistake in her Discussion post, we know he was a man: "as he'd broken down".
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agree |
ph-b (X)
: that's what the text says and with 'fault' and the passive voice.
23 hrs
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Thanks
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you cannot accuse the victim of having made a mistake
I've given my reasons for this particular formula in my disagrees to other proposed answers.
You CAN blame someone for his own mistake/fault so the other answers just don't make sense in this context, quite the opposite in fact as they are contradictions
Regards
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Note added at 18 hrs (2018-10-06 06:29:45 GMT)
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Ms. Finch wrote in her remarks
"I think that SafeTex is completely wrong in his interpretation that " the writer wants to suggest that she is wholly at fault for the second "event". On the contrary:"
I never suggested this. I quote (with key words in bold)
"The solution is in my view to say something like "you cannot accuse the victim of having made a mistake, NOR can she be blamed for the accident unless she had done something reckless...(which was NOT the case in the lawyer's view)
disagree |
Daryo
: It seems that you have confused the logic of law with the everyday ["normal"] logic // just an example of that dissonance / disparity (whatever you want to call it) - ever heard people saying that "the law is an ass"?//What's wrong with that?
8 hrs
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Yep, I've also heard "as stubborn as a mule" :)
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disagree |
Tony M
: In this sort of legal document it is not a question of a mistake -- in fact, it could indeed be considered a mistake, it is definitely advised against! -- BUT it is not justification for being at fault in respect of the accident!
9 hrs
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okay so maybe "you cannot accuse the victim of being at fault".
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disagree |
B D Finch
: I don't see how you can deny your Discussion entry of 14:00 Oct 5, that I quoted. The victim appears to have been a man "as he'd broken down" and, as he's dead, he can't be accused. Insurance uses the terms "blame" and "fault", not "accuse" and "mistake".
11 hrs
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you can not blame them [the victims] for their own mistakes
Soit la victime est conductrice, alors la faute de M. X est à l'origine exclusive de l'accident, soit la victime est piétonne lors de l'accident et l'on ne peut lui reprocher sa propre faute à l'exception de sa faute inexcusable, qui se définit comme une faute volontaire, d'une exceptionnelle gravité, exposant sans raison valable son auteur à un danger dont il aurait dû avoir conscience.
on ne peut lui reprocher sa propre faute => lui = " la victime qui est piétonne lors de l'accident"
faute inexcusable, qui se définit comme une faute volontaire, d'une exceptionnelle gravité, exposant sans raison valable son auteur à un danger dont il aurait dû avoir conscience.
=> sounds like suicide
the meaning:
-- on ne peut lui reprocher sa propre faute => you can't blame the victim because the victim made some mistake, as in: if you can't be bothered to slow down and run over someone who inadvertently crossed the road on a red light for pedestrians you are still responsible, or in this case the fact that a car was partially obstructing the road doesn't absolve you from your responsibility if you drive into it.
-- à l'exception de sa faute inexcusable => if someone threw themselves suddenly in the front of your car, you can't be held responsible.
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Note added at 19 hrs (2018-10-06 07:19:25 GMT)
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...
=> sounds like suicide, or deliberately playing some stupid daredevil games
Thanks Daryo; this makes it much clearer. |
agree |
Tony M
: Though I don't totally adhere to your scenario... / I think the use of 'on' here invites the use of the passive, as I've suggested in discussion: they cannot be deemed to be at fault...
13 mins
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Thanks!
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agree |
AllegroTrans
: But I would use "him" or "her" (if this is known from the rest of the document), so as not to imply the plural, and I would use "one" rather "you" (as lawyers tend to)
34 mins
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I was thinking of adding "one ..." as an alternative // I put the plural deliberately as it doesn't change nothing to the meaning and the explanation and avoids the distraction of fiddling with him / him or her / him/here / they ... Thanks
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agree |
Eliza Hall
54 mins
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Thanks!
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disagree |
SafeTex
: No way. Please see my reasons in discussion
58 mins
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I'm very interested to see what alternative explanation you could make thanks to using the singular?
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agree |
writeaway
: No way this is 100% wrong
20 hrs
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I would hope so. Thanks!
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agree |
ph-b (X)
: Not sure about your explanations but I agree that your suggested translation reflects what the text says
1 day 1 hr
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Merci!
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Discussion
This whole thread just makes me laugh :)
We started with a "clear and simple" situation according to some but we now have according to the same persons
""Soit [assertion A], soit [assertion B]" is a sentence structure used to present two alternative hypothetical situations, even if [assertion A] and [assertion B] themselves are not in the conditional mode."
or
"The accident was certainly and definitely very real, but the sentence is about two hypothetical situations, only one of which can/must apply to the real accident."
for a situation where the victim was indeed BOTH, first the driver (in their car) and then a pedestrian (outside their car) even if I agree that there is a choice as to how we perceive the victim's status (driver or pedestrian) at the time of accident
And added to this, we have some real absurdities (wrongly attributed to me) like I said the victim "was dead" when I had in fact said the "victim was run over".
All this to end up with "You can't blame the victim for his mistakes/errors" which undermines the very raison d'être for a court of law where people ARE blamed for their mistakes, errors, negligence, etc.
Regards and nice weekend to all
SafeT
The conditional isn't used here because the sentence starts with the subjunctive that tells us that it's hypothetical.
It does now seem that the victim was a man "as he'd broken down" (Asker 14:07 Oct 5).
I did have years and years of "training" in having often to decipher 100-200-300 word sentences, but even without that, some elements should be easy to spot:
"Soit [assertion A], soit [assertion B]" is a sentence structure used to present two alternative hypothetical situations, even if [assertion A] and [assertion B] themselves are not in the conditional mode.
The accident was certainly and definitely very real, but the sentence is about two hypothetical situations, only one of which can/must apply to the real accident.
So the explanation that
"The victim probably got out of the car after the first accident (where she is viewed as a driver) and then must have got run over (as a pedestrian).
For the first "event", she is not at fault but the writer wants to suggest that she is wholly at fault for the second "event"."
Fails on the basis of misinterpreting the sentence structure - by assuming that both hypothetical situations really happened in the order they were presented!
Also, expecting the legal logic to always follow common sense is, say, being very optimistic
1 The use of the plural for what we now know was a single victim
2 Because you CAN blame someone for their own mistake. The answer proposed is almost the opposite of what we need and what the lawyer really means.
The solution is in my view to say something like "you cannot accuse the victim of having made a mistake, nor can she be blamed for the accident unless she had done something reckless...(which was not the case in the lawyer's view)
Regards
If the person was not driving, but was out of their vehicle, then:
"... they cannot be blamed for being at fault in the accident, unless..." that fault were serious and inexcusable ... — it seems to me one needs to understand the 'à l\'exception de' as an implicit 'except where...'; but implying that this was NOT the case here.
It isn't really contradictory: The deceased lady, had she still be in her stationary vehicle, clearly couldn't have been responsible for the accident, it would have had to have been M. X's fault; and even outside her vehicle, she could not have been to blame, UNLESS she had done something deliberately and consciously stupid — like step out into the traffic, etc. Obviously, merely standing in front of a stationary vehicle can hardly be said to be "reckless or foolhardy" behaviour!
Anyway, you may have posted around the time Rebecca further explained the situation. There is only one victim while you're answer suggests there are 2+ (them)
the lawyer representing the victim is covering the two possible scenarios - the victim was either in or out of their car at the time of the accident - to prove that in both cases the victim is not responsible for the accident.
Which any good lawyer would do - close in advance the possibility for the opposing party to start finding "alternative" presentations of the facts more favourable to their client - here the victim's lawyer is making irrelevant any arguments from the other party about the victim being or not being in the car at the time of the accident.
Either the victim can be seen as the driver who got out but was not at fault (you normally get out of a broken car) or as a pedestrian who did something wrong (did not put up warning signs, did not go behind barrier etc.) and was largely/entirely at fault.
The victim probably got out of the car after the first accident (where she is viewed as a driver) and then must have got run over (as a pedestrian).
For the first "event", she is not at fault but the writer wants to suggest that she is wholly at fault for the second "event".
If we can agree on the situation, the translation may become easier.
Alternatively, don't even wait for others to reply and ask the client for an explanation