Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

lui reprocher sa propre faute

English translation:

he cannot be blamed for his own fault

Added to glossary by B D Finch
Oct 5, 2018 11:41
6 yrs ago
8 viewers *
French term

lui reprocher sa propre faute

Non-PRO French to English Law/Patents Insurance
This is from a civil case relating to a road traffic accident in France (involving a stationary vehicle and another vehicle that drove into it from behind) and a dispute over insurance payouts. I'm having issues with the middle of the sentence "et l'on ne peut lui reprocher sa propre faute à l'exception de sa faute inexcusable,..". The full sentence is as follows:

Soit la victime est conductrice, alors la faute de M. X est à l'origine exclusive de l'accident, soit la victime est piétonne lors de l'accident et l'on ne peut lui reprocher sa propre faute à l'exception de sa faute inexcusable, qui se définit comme une faute volontaire, d'une exceptionnelle gravité, exposant sans raison valable son auteur à un danger dont il aurait dû avoir conscience.

Thank you!
Change log

Oct 5, 2018 19:00: Rachel Fell changed "Level" from "PRO" to "Non-PRO"

Oct 8, 2018 11:06: B D Finch Created KOG entry

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (3): Daryo, Tony M, B D Finch

Non-PRO (3): Yvonne Gallagher, AllegroTrans, Rachel Fell

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Discussion

Rebecca Elliott (asker) Oct 8, 2018:
Thank you all for your input on this. The victim was indeed a man btw. I have gone with this, "...and cannot be blamed for being at fault unless that fault were inexcusable...,". I'm not sure who to give the points to as all your answers have helped me in some way. If I could share the points out I would. I think I will have to give them to B D Finch for introducing the terms "blame" and "fault" which are appropriate in an insurance context. Thanks again.
SafeTex Oct 6, 2018:
@all Hello

This whole thread just makes me laugh :)

We started with a "clear and simple" situation according to some but we now have according to the same persons

""Soit [assertion A], soit [assertion B]" is a sentence structure used to present two alternative hypothetical situations, even if [assertion A] and [assertion B] themselves are not in the conditional mode."
or
"The accident was certainly and definitely very real, but the sentence is about two hypothetical situations, only one of which can/must apply to the real accident."

for a situation where the victim was indeed BOTH, first the driver (in their car) and then a pedestrian (outside their car) even if I agree that there is a choice as to how we perceive the victim's status (driver or pedestrian) at the time of accident

And added to this, we have some real absurdities (wrongly attributed to me) like I said the victim "was dead" when I had in fact said the "victim was run over".

All this to end up with "You can't blame the victim for his mistakes/errors" which undermines the very raison d'être for a court of law where people ARE blamed for their mistakes, errors, negligence, etc.

Regards and nice weekend to all

SafeT
B D Finch Oct 6, 2018:
@Daryo You're absolutely right about this being a statement of two hypothetical situations. One would expect the actual argument about what applied to the real event to follow that scene-setting.

The conditional isn't used here because the sentence starts with the subjunctive that tells us that it's hypothetical.

It does now seem that the victim was a man "as he'd broken down" (Asker 14:07 Oct 5).
Daryo Oct 6, 2018:
Any problem - including a translation - looks simple and clear once solved.

I did have years and years of "training" in having often to decipher 100-200-300 word sentences, but even without that, some elements should be easy to spot:

"Soit [assertion A], soit [assertion B]" is a sentence structure used to present two alternative hypothetical situations, even if [assertion A] and [assertion B] themselves are not in the conditional mode.

The accident was certainly and definitely very real, but the sentence is about two hypothetical situations, only one of which can/must apply to the real accident.

So the explanation that

"The victim probably got out of the car after the first accident (where she is viewed as a driver) and then must have got run over (as a pedestrian).
For the first "event", she is not at fault but the writer wants to suggest that she is wholly at fault for the second "event"."

Fails on the basis of misinterpreting the sentence structure - by assuming that both hypothetical situations really happened in the order they were presented!

Also, expecting the legal logic to always follow common sense is, say, being very optimistic
SafeTex Oct 5, 2018:
@Rebecca You're welcome and I agree with you that the whole thing was far from evident. Perhaps others do read and interpret French better than you or me at a glance, but it was hardly "simple and clear". So don't let anything put you off asking for help in the future.
Rebecca Elliott (asker) Oct 5, 2018:
Thank you for your help, SafeTex. I like your solution, which makes sense in terms of the rest of the document.
SafeTex Oct 5, 2018:
You can not blame them for their own mistakes I've given this a disagree for two reasons:

1 The use of the plural for what we now know was a single victim

2 Because you CAN blame someone for their own mistake. The answer proposed is almost the opposite of what we need and what the lawyer really means.

The solution is in my view to say something like "you cannot accuse the victim of having made a mistake, nor can she be blamed for the accident unless she had done something reckless...(which was not the case in the lawyer's view)

Regards
Rebecca Elliott (asker) Oct 5, 2018:
Well, I'm glad it's simple and clear to you both. I wish it had been so to me, in which case I wouldn't have needed your help.
Tony M Oct 5, 2018:
@ Asker I agree with Daryo: it really is simple and clear enough, at least to translate the part you are asking about:

If the person was not driving, but was out of their vehicle, then:
"... they cannot be blamed for being at fault in the accident, unless..." that fault were serious and inexcusable ... — it seems to me one needs to understand the 'à l\'exception de' as an implicit 'except where...'; but implying that this was NOT the case here.

It isn't really contradictory: The deceased lady, had she still be in her stationary vehicle, clearly couldn't have been responsible for the accident, it would have had to have been M. X's fault; and even outside her vehicle, she could not have been to blame, UNLESS she had done something deliberately and consciously stupid — like step out into the traffic, etc. Obviously, merely standing in front of a stationary vehicle can hardly be said to be "reckless or foolhardy" behaviour!
SafeTex Oct 5, 2018:
@Daryo Simple and clear?!?!??

Anyway, you may have posted around the time Rebecca further explained the situation. There is only one victim while you're answer suggests there are 2+ (them)
Daryo Oct 5, 2018:
this sentence seems simple and clear to me:

the lawyer representing the victim is covering the two possible scenarios - the victim was either in or out of their car at the time of the accident - to prove that in both cases the victim is not responsible for the accident.

Which any good lawyer would do - close in advance the possibility for the opposing party to start finding "alternative" presentations of the facts more favourable to their client - here the victim's lawyer is making irrelevant any arguments from the other party about the victim being or not being in the car at the time of the accident.
SafeTex Oct 5, 2018:
@ Rebecca Try reading it more or less as I guessed but with the known context

Either the victim can be seen as the driver who got out but was not at fault (you normally get out of a broken car) or as a pedestrian who did something wrong (did not put up warning signs, did not go behind barrier etc.) and was largely/entirely at fault.
Rebecca Elliott (asker) Oct 5, 2018:
Thanks SafeTex. I should have made it clearer. The victim was already out of the car and at the front examining the engine as he'd broken down. The other vehicle drove into the back of the car, thereby propelling the car forward and actually killing the victim. One of the issues is over the positioning of the car. The driver in the other vehicle claims that it was half in the road and half on the hard shoulder. The sentence seems contradictory to me, but I might be reading it wrong.
SafeTex Oct 5, 2018:
@ asker I interpret the situation as follows

The victim probably got out of the car after the first accident (where she is viewed as a driver) and then must have got run over (as a pedestrian).
For the first "event", she is not at fault but the writer wants to suggest that she is wholly at fault for the second "event".
If we can agree on the situation, the translation may become easier.
Alternatively, don't even wait for others to reply and ask the client for an explanation

Proposed translations

+2
3 hrs
Selected

he/they cannot be blamed for his/their own fault

In the context of insurance, one speaks of "fault", rather than "mistake" in this context. In fact, it seems from the Asker's later discussion entry that the victim was a man. A couple of people seem to have imagined it was a woman, having failed to appreciate the fact that, in French, after the feminine "victime" related pronouns and nouns will also take the feminine form, even if the victim was a man. However, if the sex of the victim was unknown I think that nowadays the acceptable way of dealing with this is by using "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun.

I think that SafeTex is completely wrong in his interpretation that " the writer wants to suggest that she is wholly at fault for the second "event". On the contrary:

" l'on ne peut lui reprocher sa propre faute à l'exception de sa faute inexcusable, qui se définit comme une faute volontaire, d'une exceptionnelle gravité, exposant sans raison valable son auteur à un danger dont il aurait dû avoir conscience."

In spite of the missing "pas", it is clear from how the sentence continues " à l'exception de sa faute inexcusable …", that the writer is saying that the victim cannot be blamed for his own fault unless the fault is inexcusable because being deliberate, exceptionally serious etc. This extract actually does not go on to say whether or not those circumstances applied. Presumably, your text does go on to make a statement about that.

An example of a fault to which those exceptions applied would be that of a pedestrian who suddenly stepped into the road without looking (but with no suicidal intention), when an oncoming car was too close for the driver to be able to stop in time to avoid hitting them. In that case, the pedestrian would have been responsible for "une faute volontaire, d'une exceptionnelle gravité, exposant sans raison valable son auteur à un danger dont il aurait dû avoir conscience."

Peer comment(s):

disagree SafeTex : Same problem as other answer. You CAN be blamed for your own fault.
6 hrs
The point is to translate the source text, not to substitute your own ideas. This is about insurance law, not your personal philosophy.
agree Daryo : can only agree - basically the same interpretation / I did hesitate between "fault" and "mistake" -
15 hrs
Thanks Daryo
agree Tony M : From asker's extra context, we do seem to know it was a man? I agree about 'fault' (see my discussion post), though I'm a little uneasy about 'blamed for their fault'... Dear me, sorry, read that completely the wrong way round... before coffee!
16 hrs
Thank's Tony. The term "blame" is used in insurance and is distinct from "fault". Unless the Asker made a mistake in her Discussion post, we know he was a man: "as he'd broken down".
agree ph-b (X) : that's what the text says and with 'fault' and the passive voice.
23 hrs
Thanks
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you"
-3
10 hrs

you cannot accuse the victim of having made a mistake

Hello

I've given my reasons for this particular formula in my disagrees to other proposed answers.

You CAN blame someone for his own mistake/fault so the other answers just don't make sense in this context, quite the opposite in fact as they are contradictions

Regards







--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 18 hrs (2018-10-06 06:29:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Ms. Finch wrote in her remarks

"I think that SafeTex is completely wrong in his interpretation that " the writer wants to suggest that she is wholly at fault for the second "event". On the contrary:"

I never suggested this. I quote (with key words in bold)

"The solution is in my view to say something like "you cannot accuse the victim of having made a mistake, NOR can she be blamed for the accident unless she had done something reckless...(which was NOT the case in the lawyer's view)
Example sentence:

Peer comment(s):

disagree Daryo : It seems that you have confused the logic of law with the everyday ["normal"] logic // just an example of that dissonance / disparity (whatever you want to call it) - ever heard people saying that "the law is an ass"?//What's wrong with that?
8 hrs
Yep, I've also heard "as stubborn as a mule" :)
disagree Tony M : In this sort of legal document it is not a question of a mistake -- in fact, it could indeed be considered a mistake, it is definitely advised against! -- BUT it is not justification for being at fault in respect of the accident!
9 hrs
okay so maybe "you cannot accuse the victim of being at fault".
disagree B D Finch : I don't see how you can deny your Discussion entry of 14:00 Oct 5, that I quoted. The victim appears to have been a man "as he'd broken down" and, as he's dead, he can't be accused. Insurance uses the terms "blame" and "fault", not "accuse" and "mistake".
11 hrs
Something went wrong...
+4
34 mins
French term (edited): on ne peut lui reprocher sa propre faute

you can not blame them [the victims] for their own mistakes



Soit la victime est conductrice, alors la faute de M. X est à l'origine exclusive de l'accident, soit la victime est piétonne lors de l'accident et l'on ne peut lui reprocher sa propre faute à l'exception de sa faute inexcusable, qui se définit comme une faute volontaire, d'une exceptionnelle gravité, exposant sans raison valable son auteur à un danger dont il aurait dû avoir conscience.


on ne peut lui reprocher sa propre faute => lui = " la victime qui est piétonne lors de l'accident"


faute inexcusable, qui se définit comme une faute volontaire, d'une exceptionnelle gravité, exposant sans raison valable son auteur à un danger dont il aurait dû avoir conscience.
=> sounds like suicide

the meaning:

-- on ne peut lui reprocher sa propre faute => you can't blame the victim because the victim made some mistake, as in: if you can't be bothered to slow down and run over someone who inadvertently crossed the road on a red light for pedestrians you are still responsible, or in this case the fact that a car was partially obstructing the road doesn't absolve you from your responsibility if you drive into it.

-- à l'exception de sa faute inexcusable => if someone threw themselves suddenly in the front of your car, you can't be held responsible.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 hrs (2018-10-06 07:19:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

...
=> sounds like suicide, or deliberately playing some stupid daredevil games
Note from asker:
Thanks Daryo; this makes it much clearer.
Peer comment(s):

agree Tony M : Though I don't totally adhere to your scenario... / I think the use of 'on' here invites the use of the passive, as I've suggested in discussion: they cannot be deemed to be at fault...
13 mins
Thanks!
agree AllegroTrans : But I would use "him" or "her" (if this is known from the rest of the document), so as not to imply the plural, and I would use "one" rather "you" (as lawyers tend to)
34 mins
I was thinking of adding "one ..." as an alternative // I put the plural deliberately as it doesn't change nothing to the meaning and the explanation and avoids the distraction of fiddling with him / him or her / him/here / they ... Thanks
agree Eliza Hall
54 mins
Thanks!
disagree SafeTex : No way. Please see my reasons in discussion
58 mins
I'm very interested to see what alternative explanation you could make thanks to using the singular?
agree writeaway : No way this is 100% wrong
20 hrs
I would hope so. Thanks!
agree ph-b (X) : Not sure about your explanations but I agree that your suggested translation reflects what the text says
1 day 1 hr
Merci!
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