| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9] > | Off topic: Beginner’s luck ??? Thread poster: Juliano Martins
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Juliano Martins 
Brazil
Local time: 10:42
Member (2008)
English to Portuguese
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TOPIC STARTER | Audaces Fortuna Iuvat | Jul 29, 2008 |
Thanks for all the advices. That's really what I wanted to hear from you. I am glad to learn from your experience.
I’d like to say that what happened to me was a total surprise. I really didn’t expect it so quickly and I didn’t know how to deal with it. I just started to do the jobs and they offered me more. It was a temptation!
I believe I have done a nice job so far, because I am really paying attention to the details and correcting everything I write. Maybe I d... See more Thanks for all the advices. That's really what I wanted to hear from you. I am glad to learn from your experience.
I’d like to say that what happened to me was a total surprise. I really didn’t expect it so quickly and I didn’t know how to deal with it. I just started to do the jobs and they offered me more. It was a temptation!
I believe I have done a nice job so far, because I am really paying attention to the details and correcting everything I write. Maybe I did some mistakes here in the forum, but here I’m just talking to you, totally informal, you know.
And I really want to change my career to be a real translator. I also believe that “Audaces Fortuna Iuvat” and I am being more audacious than I have ever been in my entire life in this translation field.
I don’t want to mock anyone or to do unprofessional things. I apologize for any misunderstanding or bad attitudes that I might have taken (or that I am taking). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Peter Manda (X)
Local time: 08:42
German to English
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| throughput in legal field | Jul 29, 2008 |
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I am particularly suprised to hear that anybody working in the field of legal translation can achieve this kind of conveyor belt speed. The law by its very nature covers all aspects of human existence. A statute, a contract or a law suit may relate to any kind of commercial activity, and will include specialised terminology peculiar to that area. .
I work on legal translation all the time. It depends entirely on the text, I agree; but in the areas where I practiced law (commericial, transactional, multinational litigation), my output can be very high and I have achieved 10,000 target words per day [but I have to admit, I can't sustain that level of translation speed or output for more than a day at a time - it just burns me out]. Regardless, "even" in law my output is well higher than 2,000 a day ... I am certain that as you cover more and more legal documents and get familiary with the terminology and nuances, you will get faster. Whenever finding something new, I find really researching all the background to the first few paragraphs to be immensely helpful. For example, on my first astronomy and physics texts, I read everything about the terminology and background on Britannica, NASA, university and institute websites, and even in the Journals Science and Nature on the particular topics. I didn't spend more than 6 to 10 hours doing this, but the research was inevitably helpful in providing a better translation.
Unfortunately, I can't help with the Turkish translation though. The only words in Turkish I actively know are Turk Hava Yolari, Ekmek, and Cok merci.
| | | | Peter Manda (X)
Local time: 08:42
German to English
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| wealth comes from happiness ... | Jul 29, 2008 |
Juliano Martins wrote:
Thanks for all the advices. That's really what I wanted to hear from you. I am glad to learn from your experience.
I’d like to say that what happened to me was a total surprise. I really didn’t expect it so quickly and I didn’t know how to deal with it. I just started to do the jobs and they offered me more. It was a temptation!
Wealth comes from the joy of doing. I too fell into this and was surprised by the amount of work and the trust that some agencies place in my work. But, honestly, I love [really love] translating. It is a very satisfying profession to me. And it seems you fit in the same category; which means you will be successful.
Good luck!
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Juliano Martins wrote:
Thanks for all the advices. That's really what I wanted to hear from you. I am glad to learn from your experience.
I’d like to say that what happened to me was a total surprise. I really didn’t expect it so quickly and I didn’t know how to deal with it. I just started to do the jobs and they offered me more. It was a temptation!
I believe I have done a nice job so far, because I am really paying attention to the details and correcting everything I write. Maybe I did some mistakes here in the forum, but here I’m just talking to you, totally informal, you know.
And I really want to change my career to be a real translator. I also believe that “Audaces Fortuna Iuvat” and I am being more audacious than I have ever been in my entire life in this translation field.
I don’t want to mock anyone or to do unprofessional things. I apologize for any misunderstanding or bad attitudes that I might have taken (or that I am taking).
Please Juliano remember that "audaces" does not mean reckless.
Prudence is what makes the difference between the two.
Get your money first and then think about quitting your job.
Silvestro
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| Another wet blanket | Jul 29, 2008 |
I have been following this thread all day long and must confess that I'm a bit bewildered by many answers to Juliano's original post.
I hope my post will not sound too harsh, I don't mean to be harsh but English is not my mother tongue, and not everything might come over exactly the way a mean it. Also, I most certainly don't want to criticize you, Juliano. But since you asked for advice, I hope you will accept my opinion.
In these forums, there is constant moaning abou... See more I have been following this thread all day long and must confess that I'm a bit bewildered by many answers to Juliano's original post.
I hope my post will not sound too harsh, I don't mean to be harsh but English is not my mother tongue, and not everything might come over exactly the way a mean it. Also, I most certainly don't want to criticize you, Juliano. But since you asked for advice, I hope you will accept my opinion.
In these forums, there is constant moaning about the unprofessional attitude of many so-called colleagues who enter the market without knowing a thing about translation, going rates or the general "rules of the trade". Still, whenever someone mentions that they want to translate because of their love for languages, because they think that they can make some quick money, because it's a job that gives you a lot of flexibility or whatever, everyone seems to encourage these people to go for it. Why is that so?
I know that our profession cannot be easily compared to others and that the following comparisons are flawed, but would a doctor encourage you to medicate yourself, just because you've watched all episodes of ER or Grey's Anatomy? Would a lawyer encourage you to defend yourself in court just because you have always shown a keen interest in law? They surely wouldn't.
In Juliano's story, there are quite a few points that make my hair stand on end.
- Juliano says he speaks English and French fluently. Still, his posts show that his English is definitely not on a native level. If the level of his French is about the same, the result will by no means be a professional piece of work. I don't even want to start a discussion about translating into anything but your mother tongue but I strongly agree with everyone who has mentioned that translation from one foreign language in another is definitely not a good idea.
- Juliano says he sees what he is doing as a challenge. Is this professional? - I personally think that a professional translator will not accept any assignment if they are not confident that they can master it. For me, it's an absolute no-go to accept anything in an area that I am not familiar with or into a language that is not my mother tongue.
- Juliano, you say the client is happy with your work. Are you sure that they can judge the quality of your translation? It might well be that they don't have anybody who is proficient enough in both source and target language to check this and that the client will come back with complaints later on. If this is the case, the agency probably will blame you for accepting the job in the first place and will refuse to pay you. Also, you will have ruined your reputation as a translator in no time.
- You say you translate at a speed which is normally above-average even for a seasoned translator. OK, I can do 6K per day if absolutely necessary if I am highly familiar with the subject and if the text is somewhat repetitive. But as a beginner with no CAT tool, and translating into a foreign language? And you say, you also double-checked everything in that time and did extensive research? I, once again, strongly doubt that this can result in a professional piece of work.
- The one good thing about the whole story is that you did not work for a rock-bottom rate.
- Of course, the translation agency doesn't seem to have acted very professionally in this case, either, as Angela has correctly pointed out.
Given all these facts, what I don't really get is why almost everyone who has posted in this thread seems to encourage Juliano to go on with what he's doing. My advice for Juliano is: Get some training first, only translate into your mother tongue, and don't quit your old job just now or you might regret it.
If we want to be respected as professionals, shouldn't we start to act professionally? Shouldn't we make it clear to everyone that our job is not a hobby but a profession? That this is not just fun but also hard work? That we have invested (and continue to invest) in the necessary training?
Mind you, I'm not afraid of competition. I have more work than I can handle and am constantly turning down jobs. I'm just fed up with the general image that our profession seams to have (translation = a fun job that can be done by everyone who happens to know one foreign language).
Sorry for letting off steam. I'm really interested in hearing other's opinions on this.
Best regards,
Claudia ▲ Collapse
| | | | Paula James
Spain
Local time: 14:42
French to English
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I agree with you Claudia, and I too have been confused that there have been so many congratulations for what appears to me to be a fairly unprofessional way of working, both on your part and that of the agency giving you work.
There isn't anything I can add to what Claudia has said, but do read what she and the other voices of caution are saying, and do some research and preparation.
| | | | Mervyn Henderson (X)
Spain
Local time: 14:42
Spanish to English
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Juliano,
Sounds great. Very well done, but get the dosh.
Mervyn
| | | | | Interesting Thread so thanks Juliano | Jul 29, 2008 |
One of the hard things to come to terms with in translation is that it is one of the few activities you can financially reach the top in a few weeks! There is an amazingly small margin for progression and once you have be come a highly proficient and experienced professional you will find yourself being paid just once for very difficult translations that enter some agency TM whereas you could be earning a lot more doing very low-profile jobs for unregarding clients and agencies that allow you t... See more One of the hard things to come to terms with in translation is that it is one of the few activities you can financially reach the top in a few weeks! There is an amazingly small margin for progression and once you have be come a highly proficient and experienced professional you will find yourself being paid just once for very difficult translations that enter some agency TM whereas you could be earning a lot more doing very low-profile jobs for unregarding clients and agencies that allow you to retain the benefit of repetitions.
I'm not sure I'm earning more in real terms now that I have become a good translator than I did 20 years ago! ▲ Collapse
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| Don't judge too quickly | Jul 29, 2008 |
Paula James wrote:
I agree with you Claudia, and I too have been confused that there have been so many congratulations for what appears to me to be a fairly unprofessional way of working,
C'mon guys, were you all so professional right from the start? Have you never overestimated yourself when you accepted a certain assignment? Who is without sin may throw the first stone.
Having a jump start does not mean that Juliano has nothing to learn at all. But judging from the amount of work he is obviously able to handle (how well he handles it is not up to us to decide), he certainly brings some of the necessary skills. That is what I congratulated him on, nothing more, nothing less.
My beginner's luck 14 years ago were 70k words. But... I had 2 months for that. Unheard of these days...
| | | | Angela Arnone
Local time: 14:42
Member (2004)
Italian to English
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| the operation went well... | Jul 29, 2008 |
the patient died.
Surely, Wolfgang, the full weight of success in our profession is also to be judged by the quality of the end result and having the money in the bank?
This is not a reflection on Juliano. Claudia was reflecting rightly on how our profession is difficult at best, and requires ethics at every level.
Are we selling tons of potatoes at the market, or are we selling communication and culture?
I can churn out thousands of words a day, but I c... See more the patient died.
Surely, Wolfgang, the full weight of success in our profession is also to be judged by the quality of the end result and having the money in the bank?
This is not a reflection on Juliano. Claudia was reflecting rightly on how our profession is difficult at best, and requires ethics at every level.
Are we selling tons of potatoes at the market, or are we selling communication and culture?
I can churn out thousands of words a day, but I can't guarantee that the words make sense unless I have time to do the work properly.
Nor do I share NR_Stedman's view. It depends on what sort of translations you do.
I earn far more now than I did five years ago. I can pick and choose and I do creative work that has nothing to fear from TMs.
Angela
Wolfgang Jörissen wrote:
Paula James wrote:
I agree with you Claudia, and I too have been confused that there have been so many congratulations for what appears to me to be a fairly unprofessional way of working,
C'mon guys, were you all so professional right from the start? Have you never overestimated yourself when you accepted a certain assignment? Who is without sin may throw the first stone.
Having a jump start does not mean that Juliano has nothing to learn at all. But judging from the amount of work he is obviously able to handle (how well he handles it is not up to us to decide), he certainly brings some of the necessary skills. That is what I congratulated him on, nothing more, nothing less.
My beginner's luck 14 years ago were 70k words. But... I had 2 months for that. Unheard of these days... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Juliano Martins
Brazil
Local time: 10:42
Member (2008)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Dear Claudia | Jul 29, 2008 |
Thank you for the big reply. It was really interesting and I agree with you in several points.
I admit that the translation agency had a security failure, since they didn’t ask me to send my curriculum or anything else. I had already accepted the fact that I would never get a translation job before having some qualification, because since last November (when I joined this site) I had quoted for several jobs with no feedback whatsoever. And when I said that I was a system analyst, ... See more Thank you for the big reply. It was really interesting and I agree with you in several points.
I admit that the translation agency had a security failure, since they didn’t ask me to send my curriculum or anything else. I had already accepted the fact that I would never get a translation job before having some qualification, because since last November (when I joined this site) I had quoted for several jobs with no feedback whatsoever. And when I said that I was a system analyst, then they just ignored me. Ok, fair enough! So, last month, when I quoted for this potential job, I didn’t give it much credit. I just said that I was a Brazilian, available, and that I could speak French, thanks for the attention, good bye. They answered my quote in just a second. I didn’t even know how many words I could do. Well, you all know what happened after that.
I’d like to comment some of your points, just some thoughts I had. I’m not disagreeing with you in everything, but I’d like to clarify some details:
- I’m not a native English or French speaker. Ok! And I have already made it clear that I’m not a professional translator, yet. However, I intend to be.
- Since I joined this site, I realized that translators used to translate to their mother tongue only. I understand that translating from and to a foreign language is not a good idea, but sometimes it can be done, with some extra effort.
- A professional job can be a challenge. Why not? Everything we do can be seen as a challenge. Changing your job, career, moving to another country, accepting to work for someone, etc. A challenge doesn’t always means lack of professionalism. I read here in this very forum that a beginner should be paid as much as a professional translator, the difference is that the beginner will have more difficulty to do the job. And I have declined some translation jobs, since my first one.
- I’m not doing this jobs just for fun or to have money. I already have a work. I already get well paid as a system analyst. I don’t need this translation job money to survive. And I have already translated hundreds of thousands of words as a volunteer job. I used to translate from English to Portuguese to a biology web site: articles, texts, many things. I also work as a volunteer to the Brazilian Federation of Hemophilia (I’m an hemophiliac, by the way), and I have translated a lot of other things in the last few years.
- This speed was only possible because the work flux was surprisingly unlimited and because I was really excited about doing it.
- I really don’t know how the translation agency is judging my work. You are completely right. I hope to know it in the near future. Meanwhile, they just seem to like me a lot. I also admit that I can ruin my reputation by posting this topic here. Now I am totally exposed to everyone. I like to be honest, and I believe I can overcome it. Besides, I need your help, professional translators, to better understand this new career.
- Until two months ago, my plans were to save a lot of money during 2 years (perhaps), then quit my job, do a translation course, come back to this ProZ web site and begin a new career. Well, it seems that my plans are going to be anticipated. I’m extremely happy! Wouldn’t you be too?
- Concerning the doctor/lawyer/translator comparison, with all due respect, I think it’s a little exaggerated. I totally agree that to be a professional translator one needs to study a lot, much more than just learning a foreign language, etc. Besides, I think one must love it (And I do love it!). However, it is certainly much easier to a person who knows two languages to translate texts than to perform doctor/lawyer activities. Learning a language is already a kind of preparation to translate it. It’s not just seeing movies with subtitles, reading it and then ‘Oh, I’m a translator’. Maybe this ‘subtitle reader > professional translator’ analogy could be compared to ER/Gray’s Anatomy and wanting to perform medical procedures. And many professions don’t need any qualification from Universities, since there are some professions that can be learned by one’s self. It’s not rare people in the Computer Science field to be very successful without any College degree (for example: Steve Jobs). Maybe translation and computer science are fields that have this flexibility, different from medicine or law. Don’t you think?
Thanks for the attention, you are a very nice person!
[Edited at 2008-07-29 18:43] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jalapeno
Local time: 14:42
English to German
Juliano, I admire your enthusiasm and I wish you all the best, but I'm afraid I'll have to agree with most of what Claudia said. I'd also like to start by stating that English isn't my native language. If I sound harsh, please attribute it to that fact. I don't mean to be harsh, I'd just like to give you some pointers on how you can channel your energy and use it to become a professional and successful translator.
According to your profile, you've done translations on various subjec... See more Juliano, I admire your enthusiasm and I wish you all the best, but I'm afraid I'll have to agree with most of what Claudia said. I'd also like to start by stating that English isn't my native language. If I sound harsh, please attribute it to that fact. I don't mean to be harsh, I'd just like to give you some pointers on how you can channel your energy and use it to become a professional and successful translator.
According to your profile, you've done translations on various subjects, some of them rather obscure (what in the world is Fuzziology?). These translations must have been extremely specialized and must have required lots and lots of research.
You've translated in the fields of law, mechanics, health care and chemicals. You state that you work in 26 different fields.
You've translated from Italian to English, neither of which are your native language, and from Portuguese into French, which isn't your native language either.
You claim that the English mistakes you make in this thread are due to the fact that this is an informal setting and you don't proofread your postings. Yet the sample translation from Portuguese into English that you show in your profile is also full of mistakes. Shouldn't you make doubly sure that a sample translation is free of any mistakes?
All this makes me doubt that the translations you've delivered so far are of a professional standard.
My advice would be to concentrate on one target language (your native language), one or two source languages and one or two areas of specialization. Find your niche. You seem to have the talent, drive, energy, commitment, confidence - and perhaps luck - to make a successful translator. Don't throw all that away by starting out the wrong way.
All the best! ▲ Collapse
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Paula James
Spain
Local time: 14:42
French to English
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| it just doesn't reflect what people normally say on here | Jul 29, 2008 |
My main point was really that we see hundreds of posts complaining about the state of the industry, falling quality standards, etc etc, then someone comes to boast about producing work which is unlikely to be high-quality, and everyone is congratulating him. It's nothing personal against him, it just seems a bit strange for people to be encouraging such practices.
This quote: (how well he handles it is not up to us to decide) - well, of course it's true, if clients are willing to pay, tha... See more My main point was really that we see hundreds of posts complaining about the state of the industry, falling quality standards, etc etc, then someone comes to boast about producing work which is unlikely to be high-quality, and everyone is congratulating him. It's nothing personal against him, it just seems a bit strange for people to be encouraging such practices.
This quote: (how well he handles it is not up to us to decide) - well, of course it's true, if clients are willing to pay, that's up to them, but it seems to be in contradiction with all the complaints I see very day about quality.
And yes, I think I was fairly professional when I started freelancing (which wasn't so long ago), I studied and researched before I started, and only took on work I could do a good job in. I'm not saying I haven't improved, or that I've always been perfect, but I've tried.
ETA: Johannes, I wanted to say that about the sample translation too, but couldn't quite bring myself to
[Edited at 2008-07-29 19:00] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jalapeno
Local time: 14:42
English to German
Exactly, Paula. It doesn't gel with the usual tenor of the forums.
| | | | | Food for thought | Jul 29, 2008 |
Henry D wrote:
I am not too worried about these points in your case. You have the passion, so you'll figure out the business side of it. Just don't overdo things, physically.
Good luck and enjoy!
From "Getting it Right" - an ATA client education booklet available in print and online.
Professional translators work into their native language
If you want your catalog translated into German and Russian, the work will be done by a native German speaker and a native Russian speaker. Native English-speakers translate from foreign languages INTO English.
As a translation buyer, you may not be aware of this, but a translator who flouts this basic rule is likely to be ignorant of other important quality issues as well.
OK, there are exceptions. But not many. If your supplier claims to be one of them, ask to see something he or she has done. If it is factually accurate and reads well, and if the translator guarantees equivalent quality for your text – why not? Sometimes a translator with particular subject-matter expertise may agree to work into what is for him or her a foreign language. In this case, the translation must be carefully edited – and not just glanced through – by a language-sensitive native speaker before it goes to press.
Chris Durban, author of the Onion Skin
http://www.atanet.org/publications/getting_it_right.php
The American Translators Association
Code of Professional Conduct & Business Practices
I will endeavor to translate with utmost accuracy and fidelity, so that I convey to the readers of the translation the same meaning and spirit the original conveyed to me. I acknowledge that level of excellence requires:
1. Mastery of the target language equivalent to that of an educated native speaker;
2. Up-to-date knowledge of the source language and the subject area sufficient to understand the message;
I will be truthful about my qualifications and business and will not accept any assignment for which I am not fully qualified, without the express consent of my client.
http://www.cta-web.org/ataethics.htm
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