| Pages in topic: [1 2 3 4 5] > | Hourly rates like any other industry service Thread poster: Maria-da-Fé Albuquerque
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Let’s just simplify and get our efforts compensated fairly and transparently.
I have seen that there has been some discussion already on why we Translators and Translation Agencies are not standardizing rates to an hourly rate, especially now with the MTPE or PEMT tasks.
I have been a fulltime professional Translator for 30 years, and I have always wondered why we charge by word/character/line, when there is a much simpler way to determine compensation for our time an... See more Let’s just simplify and get our efforts compensated fairly and transparently.
I have seen that there has been some discussion already on why we Translators and Translation Agencies are not standardizing rates to an hourly rate, especially now with the MTPE or PEMT tasks.
I have been a fulltime professional Translator for 30 years, and I have always wondered why we charge by word/character/line, when there is a much simpler way to determine compensation for our time and efforts?
The other day, I was proposed a half translation job, half MTPE job, and I thought that the rate determination that I was proposed was getting quite complex, and, even, ridiculous. The translation agency was proposing one rate for reps+100% matches, one rate for 95-99% matches, one rate for 76-94% matches, at my corresponding normal rates discount for the TR part of the job, and one rate for 0-74% MT matches, except that this last rate would be 50% of my normal per word rate, and not my normal MTPE per word rate. Why complicate? Really, why?
Why have lawyers, accountants, consultants, advisors, teachers/professors, instructors, doctors, dentists, painters, handymen services, cleaning services, etc., always charged on a per hour or per task basis, but not Translators? Because Translation never started as a profession, I guess. It started as a sort of extra income that some teachers/linguists would do for some companies, and so it took a long time to take it seriously, as a profession to be respected like any other. Is this why?
In any case, my biggest concern is not why, but how can we change this so that our work is compensated in a more respectful and simpler way, i.e., by the hour or by task.
I also know that there is always the argument: “yes, but our clients want to know beforehand how much a translation will cost them”. But those same clients, when they have to resort to a lawyer, are confronted with not knowing how much the lawyer will charge them at the end of the service, and this fact is not obstacle in this case, because this is the industry practice amongst lawyers. So, this argument is not really valid.
What are your thoughts? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Thayenga 
Germany
Local time: 05:14
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
| Industry problem | Apr 25, 2023 |
The problem in the translation industry is that customers dictate the rate, especially their attempts to impose %-reduction demands for any type of matches. As if matches don't need to be checked.
A per word rate is acceptable, and in many cases the only fair way to be compensated for our work, e. g. when it comes to short translations. For every other type of work an hourly rate should apply.
However, for some reason the translation industry oftentimes doesn't see it t... See more The problem in the translation industry is that customers dictate the rate, especially their attempts to impose %-reduction demands for any type of matches. As if matches don't need to be checked.
A per word rate is acceptable, and in many cases the only fair way to be compensated for our work, e. g. when it comes to short translations. For every other type of work an hourly rate should apply.
However, for some reason the translation industry oftentimes doesn't see it this way. Trying to impose reductions based on some type of criteria (matches) is just like as if you would ask your mechanic to repair your car and offer her/him a per screw-rate, or request (sounds nicer than demand) a reduction for fastening a hose on both ends, will to pay only for the fastening of one end because it's repetitive work.
Unfortunately, there will always be someone who accepts scaled rates and reductions. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 05:14
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Thayenga wrote:
(sounds nicer than demand) a reduction for fastening a hose on both ends, will to pay only for the fastening of one end because it's repetitive work.
... not really correct. A repetition in a CAT tool is an automated procedure that doesn't cost the translator any time at all. The fastening of a hose on both ends might be repetitive, but it's still work that needs to be done and hence has to be paid for the time it takes.
I read a lot of complaints about the reduced payment of repetitions and fuzzies, but in several cases I'm still paid 10% and even 20% for a repetition that costs me no work at all. It often goes both ways. After 23 years of working with a CAT tool I can confirm that (fair) fuzzy reductions are justified and not some dark scheme to rip off the translator. Of course you will always have bottom feeders who try to steal every last penny from their translators, but I really can't be bothered: just don't work for them.
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 05:14
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
My thoughts on the subject: I think you can't compare the translation industry to lawyers and the like. The work of translators is measurable in words (before the computer era it was measured in lines btw), the work of a laywer or accountant isn't. I don't think it's more difficult than that, to be honest.
[Edited at 2023-04-25 07:39 GMT]
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| Who decides how long it takes? | Apr 25, 2023 |
Hello,
I agree that an hourly rates would make it much simpler, but also there, it has to be clear that it is the translator who says how much time it took.
Some companies out there try to estimate the time you'll take, so that they can give you a fair deadline. I'm ok with that. But some of them are trying to dictate in advance the time you'll need, and so it ends up to be just an hidden per-word rate, often to our disadvantage.
Don't let them tell you ho... See more Hello,
I agree that an hourly rates would make it much simpler, but also there, it has to be clear that it is the translator who says how much time it took.
Some companies out there try to estimate the time you'll take, so that they can give you a fair deadline. I'm ok with that. But some of them are trying to dictate in advance the time you'll need, and so it ends up to be just an hidden per-word rate, often to our disadvantage.
Don't let them tell you how much time you've worked.
Best regards,
Marie-France ▲ Collapse
| | | | | The modern way | Apr 25, 2023 |
Lieven Malaise wrote:
My thoughts on the subject: I think you can't compare the translation industry with lawyers and the like. The work of translators is measurable in words (before the computer era it was measured in lines btw), the work of a laywer or accountant isn't. I don't think it's more difficult than that, to be honest.
You could, for fun, ask a lawyer to write you a 2000-word will or an accountant to produce you a 50-line set of accounts on a piecemeal basis. Why not?
The lawyer uses a template. The accountant uses a spreadsheet. They don’t reinvent the wheel every time.
Where’s the difference to translators? Are they offering discounts?
And as for getting paid 10-20% for matches requiring no work at all, I’d love to come across some matches like that. Not even having to read them, let alone correct them or adjust them to the context or see how they affect the terminology and tone of the rest of the text. Haven’t come across any of them yet. Maybe it’s because I don’t use MT?
In the old days I’d notice a text was familiar, compare the two Word files, adjust the red bits, and bill the customer for the time it took. Thanks to modern technology they now have to pay us for doing (next to) nothing.
So yes, an hourly rate is the only sensible way of doing it, and direct clients are normally very happy to do it.
It’s only agencies that don’t trust you to be honest and fair. Says something about them, really.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 05:14
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| You can make it simpler | Apr 25, 2023 |
Maria-da-Fé Albuquerque wrote:
The other day, I was proposed a half translation job, half MTPE job, and I thought that the rate determination that I was proposed was getting quite complex, and, even, ridiculous. The translation agency was proposing one rate for reps+100% matches, one rate for 95-99% matches, one rate for 76-94% matches, at my corresponding normal rates discount for the TR part of the job, and one rate for 0-74% MT matches, except that this last rate would be 50% of my normal per word rate, and not my normal MTPE per word rate. Why complicate?
It's not complicated. Learn how to use a spreadsheet. (-:
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 05:14
French to English
My partner has worked for years as a financial consultant in an accounting firm. He recently told me about a client in financial trouble despite having a wealthy clientele, and offhandedly remarked that "his estimates are as silly as yours". Of course I balked at that since I'm doing well financially, and asked what was silly about my estimates. He said it was ridiculous to go into so much detail and bill pernickety sums, reminding me how I had been moaning about an agency nitpicking after I app... See more My partner has worked for years as a financial consultant in an accounting firm. He recently told me about a client in financial trouble despite having a wealthy clientele, and offhandedly remarked that "his estimates are as silly as yours". Of course I balked at that since I'm doing well financially, and asked what was silly about my estimates. He said it was ridiculous to go into so much detail and bill pernickety sums, reminding me how I had been moaning about an agency nitpicking after I applied the wrong fuzzy rate, overcharging by maybe three euros when the total came to about €800.
I suppose agencies will always want to nickel-and-dime us, it's how they earn money. I kind of think that attention to detail goes hand in hand with an attitude of "look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves", so we translators find it normal.
But with direct clients, I increasingly apply no-nonsense flat fees. I think they like simple, round figures that are easy to remember. Someone said above that clients like knowing in advance how much something will cost. That's very true, however they also have no idea how long their file is, since they'll tell us it's "five pages with a couple of photos". They are always really surprised when I tell them that Word actually displays the number of words at the bottom of the page.
To calculate the flat fee, I generally work out how much it would cost billing per word, then I round it up. Rounding it up means that if the client comes back with a couple more sentences, I'll add them on without applying any extra charge, which they much appreciate.
So the client knows how much they're being charged ahead of time and feels like he's getting something extra for his money, I'm well paid, and the job is done smoothly, it's a win-win situation.
[Edited at 2023-04-25 09:13 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| Lawyer vs. Translator | Apr 25, 2023 |
Lieven Malaise wrote:
My thoughts on the subject: I think you can't compare the translation industry to lawyers and the like. The work of translators is measurable in words (before the computer era it was measured in lines btw), the work of a laywer or accountant isn't. I don't think it's more difficult than that, to be honest.
[Edited at 2023-04-25 07:39 GMT]
I disagree. Many times, our job is not limited to translating words. We are required to read and review the client's documentation, styleguides, instructions, Websites, training materials, including videos, and also to review query replies, to generate and fill-in QA reports, to insert or create job-related queries in the Excel sheets or specific client portals, come back to customer questions or comments(sometimes weeks later), etc., and we also, obviously, have to do some clear thinking on what we are translating or localizing/adapting into our own culture, not to mention the tasks that involve research and contacts with other experts to gain expertise, in order to do a good job.
Of course, when we determine our per word rate, it should contemplate all this time that we spend not merely translating words, but doing other knowledge-based tasks, and often our per word rate does not reflect this extra time we spend at work. Lawyers, painters, handymen, etc. who do not work for agencies just make their lives very simple by charging by the hour. I believe this is the most transparent way to charge for a service. I believe we should all decide how much is my hour of work worth?
| | | | | Hourly rates argument - repetitions | Apr 25, 2023 |
Lieven Malaise wrote:
A repetition in a CAT tool is an automated procedure that doesn't cost the translator any time at all.
Sorry, I also disagree here. A repetition, when paid (when there is a rate to consider, that is what we are talking about), does cost the translator some time, of course. If not, then the translator is not doing his/her job. A repetition is a word that the translator has to review, read, evaluate and sometimes correct/change. If there are 10.000 repetitions, there are 10.000 words to review. 10.000 words do cost some time to review, even more so if there are corrections to be made to those repetitions.
| | | | Stepan Konev
Russian Federation
Local time: 06:14
English to Russian
Recently a client of mine asked me to measure the time I spent to translate their 1500-word job. With an average translation rate of 250 words per hour, it would take 6 hours for me to complete the job. To my surprise I completed it in 2 hours.
If I really count hours not based on words or characters, then I have to bill 2 hours instead of 6. Hourly rate encourages translators to work slowly.
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At the beginning of my career, I was against hourly rates because I thought the agencies/clients would dictate how many hours each job should take. After a while, a client came up who wanted me to track how many hours each job took, and would then pay me by the hour. My eyes opened and I saw this should be (IMHO) the only way translators should be paid. After a while, though, the client decided my colleagues and I were tracking too much time and started suggesting we should spend X hours on each... See more At the beginning of my career, I was against hourly rates because I thought the agencies/clients would dictate how many hours each job should take. After a while, a client came up who wanted me to track how many hours each job took, and would then pay me by the hour. My eyes opened and I saw this should be (IMHO) the only way translators should be paid. After a while, though, the client decided my colleagues and I were tracking too much time and started suggesting we should spend X hours on each task. To be honest, it was never more than a suggestion, but I still felt a little constrained.
To sum it up, yes, I think we should charge hourly rates and track the time spent on each job. Sadly, not many clients agree. ▲ Collapse
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Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 05:14
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Marina Taffetani wrote:
To sum it up, yes, I think we should charge hourly rates and track the time spent on each job. Sadly, not many clients agree.
Since any translator can diversify his/her rates (rate X for general translation, rate Y for technical translation, rate Z for medical translation, etcetera) I don't see the need for an hourly rate.
But even if I would, then there will always be translators who will keep offering a word rate to take the place of their competitors (since agencies will mostly prefer translators applying a word rate for obvious reasons).
So I don't think it's a matter of 'why don't we apply an hourly rate', but more of 'you mostly won't be able to apply an hourly rate because you have to stay competitive'.
There is also no comparison to accountants or lawyers because for those professions an hourly rate is the only way to be paid, unlike translation.
[Edited at 2023-04-25 12:26 GMT]
| | | | Stepan Konev
Russian Federation
Local time: 06:14
English to Russian
| Different leverage of tools | Apr 25, 2023 |
Lieven Malaise wrote:
But even if I would, then there will always be translators who will keep offering a word rate to take the place of their competitors There will always be translators who believe that the more manual work they do and the longer they deliver it, the more value they add and the more professional they are. (It's not about you, but just a general statement, not to oppose but to add to what you said.)
Why should I earn less simply because I know how to save my and my client's time? I can't see why hourly rate is much more fair or reasonable than that based on word count.
[Edited at 2023-04-25 13:12 GMT]
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 05:14
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Stepan Konev wrote:
I can't see why hourly rate is much more fair or reasonable than that based on word count.
... actually isn't. Any translator with some experience has eventually a word rate that reflects his/her hourly rate. It's the only thing that makes sense financially. Personally I know perfectly well how many words per hour I have to translate/edit/post-edit on average and how many hours per day, week and month I have to translate to reach my financial goals. If that would ever become a problem, then I guess it's time to raise my rates.
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