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Jun 3, 2011 15:13
13 yrs ago
2 viewers *
Spanish term

La paciente vino por motivación propia o de terceros?

Spanish to English Medical Medical (general) motiavación
hola a todos:

Estoy traduciendo una presentación para una conferencia y una de las preguntas es : La paciente vino por motivaciòn propia o de terceros?

y no me gusta nada de lo que traduje. Cómo sería una forma natural de decir esa frase?
mil gracias
Proposed translations (English)
4 +4 Did the patient come of her own accord or was she persuaded to do so?
4 +2 Did the patient come of her own accord or on the insistence of others?
4 Did the patient come on her own or was she
3 +1 Did the patient come on her own or encouraged by others?
3 +1 Did the patient come on her own or at the urging of others.
4 Did the patient come voluntarily, or did someone talk her into it?
4 Did the patient come on her own initiative, or at the instigation of others?
3 Did the patient come on her own will or advised by a third person?
3 -1 Did the patient come of her own volition/accord or through a third party?
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

Non-PRO (1): Rosa Paredes

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Discussion

liz askew Jun 7, 2011:
http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=1992-...

Abstract
Impressions are influenced by motivations stemming primarily from the target (e.g., interdependence), 3rd parties (e.g., accountability or time pressure), or the self. The current studies investigate motivations stemming primarily from the self. In Study 1, Ss were given dispositional feedback about their abilities to categorize or to individuate. In Study 2, they were given situational information about the appropriate norms to categorize or to individuate. As predicted, dispositional feedback influenced low self-monitors, and situational information influenced high self-monitors. Both altered attention to potentially individuating category-inconsistent attributes as well as requests for additional information. Causal models further illuminated the mediating processes. Results suggest that people's flexible self-concepts are an important source of motivation in impression formation. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2010 APA, all rights reserved)
liz askew Jun 7, 2011:
@James, as far as I am concerned anybody other than myself can be a third party. "Terceros" can = third parties/others!!! I don't see what your point is at all.
liz askew Jun 7, 2011:
Terapia psicológica - La decisión de entrar a un tratamiento de ... - [ Translate this page ]
by CL Acosta - 2009 - Cited by 1 - Related articles
La decisión de entrar a un tratamiento de adicciones: motivación propia e influencia de terceros. The decision to enter an addiction treatment: self ...
www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0718... - Cached
Carol Gullidge Jun 4, 2011:
surely nobody in their right mind would ever dream of trying to persuade anyone else to have cosmetic surgery - more than their life's worth ;O)). Unless of course we're talking about plastic surgery following an accident or illness, burns, etc... which is course quite a different matter. Perhaps the context needs to be even more explicit...
James A. Walsh Jun 3, 2011:
Well in that case, Susi: [!!] I think my suggestion fits the tone, then. "Did the patient come voluntarily, or did someone talk her into it?" I have to admit, when I was reading "her" earlier, I was reading 'boob jobs', dunno why?! As I said in my last note: "Did the patient make the decision voluntarily? "Or did someone talk her into it?"
susiq (asker) Jun 3, 2011:
yes James , sure! this is about cosmetic surgery!!!!
James A. Walsh Jun 3, 2011:
@Susi Thanks for the additional context. Very helpful (as I'm sure you've come to realise by now). It would also be great to know what surgical procedure is being referred to here. Could you let us know that too, please?
James A. Walsh Jun 3, 2011:
@Liz I find it quite ironic that your value judgement was placed on "de terceros" in your answer...
susiq (asker) Jun 3, 2011:
Thank you for all your answers. this is a study about patients' personality and the risk for the surgeon.
liz askew Jun 3, 2011:
All the translations seem to have a value judgement placed on "de terceros), which I find difficult to understand.
Carol Gullidge Jun 3, 2011:
@James Maybe I am being over pernickety, but I feel that the target text should be just as unambiguous/logical as the source text. The word OR on its own doesn't automatically make the two clauses mutually exclusive. It OUGHT to here, but first of all the ideas have to be logically exclusive. In the "did she jump or was she pushed" example, it's clear from the sense (and not just because of that OR) that the 2 ideas rule each other out. Logically, it can only be one or the other. But a lot of the examples posted here are the equivalent of saying "did she jump or was she persuaded to jump?" or variations thereof - where the 2nd idea doesn't exclude the 1st idea, and the overall effect isn't quite logical
James A. Walsh Jun 3, 2011:
@Carol I disagree with your reasoning, and think you are overcomplicating things here. In my opinion, all answers here ARE logically, mutually exclusive by the mere inclusion of 'OR'. Regardless of the wording of each answer, they all amount to a simple concept: Did THIS happen OR did THAT happen? Only one option can be the answer, i.e., they are mutually exclusive options, OR only one could have occurred.
Carol Gullidge Jun 3, 2011:
@ Robert sorry, just saw your posting. Gosh, how confusing! To my UK ears, going on his own would rule out being accompanied by Josh!
Carol Gullidge Jun 3, 2011:
no Natalia! I don't think so at any rate! Nor can you instigate someone else, as far as I know! But you can do something at someone's instigation. More colloquially: did she do it off her own bat?

And as for that OR - that makes the two ideas being expressed mutually exclusive. "Did she jump or was she pushed?" It's either one OR the other - can't be both. But most of the options posted here are not, logically, mutually exclusive, i.e., you could have both, so "OR" is not appropriate. But "or" is part of the Asker's term, so the two ideas chosen must therefore be ones that ARE mutually exclusive.
Robert Forstag Jun 3, 2011:
@Carol: My use of "on his own" At least in US English, "come on her own" can refer to motivation as well as "accompaniment," in such a context. The former meaning was the intent of the phrase in my answer.... (e.g., e.g., The boy went to Mr. Smith's house *on his own*, along with his friend Josh, and confessed that he had broken his bay window with his errant throw of the baseball.
Natalia Pedrosa (X) Jun 3, 2011:
Can you really "instigate yourself" to do something?
Carol Gullidge Jun 3, 2011:
exactly jmleger! I'm obviously not explaining myself clearly! "por motivación propia" means it was her own idea, and not that she came on her own (ie, by herself, alone, unaccompanied...)! "Motivación terceros" means more or less "on the advice of others", but this still doesn't rule out going there of her own free will.

Quite simply: did she go at her own instigation or that of others?
jmleger Jun 3, 2011:
However you choose to phrase it... it boils down to "was it her idea or someone else's"?
Natalia Pedrosa (X) Jun 3, 2011:
Could be Yes, context is not clear enough.
Noni Gilbert Riley Jun 3, 2011:
Mind you (re Natalia's answer below) There was a posting re referral of a patient some time ago - I wonder if I could find it, because it might be a possible context, although it is certainly not how I would read it first off. Perhaps the rest of the paragraph /preceding/following questions might give us a clue, susiq?
Natalia Pedrosa (X) Jun 3, 2011:
Total Contigo, Giovanni, nadie la convenció u obligó a ir, sino que fue al hospital porque otros se lo aconsejaron.
Giovanni Rengifo Jun 3, 2011:
SUBTLE DIFFERENCE Please note that there's a big difference between "encourage" and "insist", "persuade" or "talk someone into". IMO, what is implied in the source text is "La paciente vino por motivación propia (o motivada) por terceros?". No persuadida, ni por insistencia, ni convencida por terceros.

Proposed translations

+4
12 mins
Selected

Did the patient come of her own accord or was she persuaded to do so?

sugerencia
Reference:

http://psychiatry.healthse.com/.../stages_of_the_psychiatric_interview/

Peer comment(s):
agree neilmac : Nice option too :)
1 min
agree Noni Gilbert Riley : ..."persuaded to do so" sounds good.
35 mins
agree philgoddard
39 mins
agree davidgrillot : i think this one
44 mins
neutral Carol Gullidge : OK, but the two are not mutually exclusive - you can be persuaded and still come of your own accord - after being persuaded to do so of course :)
47 mins
agree James A. Walsh : Having reviewed this question for the umteenth time, I finally agree that this is the best way to say it. "Persuaded to do so" just does it for me, frankly.
6 hrs
disagree liz askew : No mention of persuasion
3 days 23 hrs
'Vino por motivación de terceros' implies that she was persuaded. Otherwise, why how would the third party be linked?
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "thanksss"
3 mins

Did the patient come on her own or was she

referred by a third party?
Peer comment(s):
neutral Natalia Pedrosa (X) : "Referred by a third party" implies a professional, and here it's not clear if she was referred by a pro or advised to go by a relative or another.
3 mins
Something went wrong...
+1
4 mins

Did the patient come on her own or encouraged by others?

-
Peer comment(s):
agree Natalia Pedrosa (X)
2 mins
agree neilmac : This is my 3rd attempt to agree with this, a nice informal option for a spoken presentation IMO.
15 mins
neutral Carol Gullidge : coming on her own means she was unaccompanied - not quite the same thing as of her own volition// not quite, she could still come of her own free will after having been persuaded to do so by others - in other words she was encouraged, but went willingly
23 mins
Thank you for pointing that out. How about "on her own will"? Would you be satisfied then?
neutral philgoddard : It should be "or was she encouraged by others".
44 mins
You're right. To be honest, I thought about this after providing my answer. Thank you for pointing it out.
disagree liz askew : I agree with Carol and Phil
4 hrs
Something went wrong...
+2
8 mins

Did the patient come of her own accord or on the insistence of others?

We're not talking about transport here but about whether the patient came willingly, had to be persuaded to come or what.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 mins (2011-06-03 15:21:50 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry: "transport/in the company of others" - which is what "coming on your own" is.
Peer comment(s):
agree neilmac : "of here own accord" is nice but am not so keen on "the insistence ..."
5 mins
James' "talk her into it" is nicer, or Carol's "instigation". Thanks Neil.
agree Barbara Cochran, MFA
14 mins
Thanks Barbara
agree Carol Gullidge : perhaps instigation instead of insistence?
21 mins
Yes, I prefere instigation too, thanks Carol.
disagree liz askew : I really don't agree with "on the insistence of others" at all./Why? because this is not stated or even implied in the original phrase.
4 hrs
Not sure why, but OK Liz.
Something went wrong...
+1
14 mins

Did the patient come on her own or at the urging of others.

I don't think the reference is to a referral by a third-party physician or other professional and I also think that "urging" rather than "encouragement" is the implied sense of any external motivation that might have prompted the patient's visit.

Suerte.
Peer comment(s):
agree Victoria Frazier
8 mins
Gracias, Victoria.
neutral Carol Gullidge : coming on her own means she was unaccompanied - not quite the same thing as of her own volition. I like "urging", but being urged doesn't mean you can't come on your own :)//true, but "on her own" implies unaccompanied rather than "motivación propia"
16 mins
But Carol, the issue here has to do with the *motivation* of her visit and not with whether she was accompanied during her visit.
Something went wrong...
14 mins

Did the patient come on her own will or advised by a third person?

Hi, this is a bit of a mix of previous answers, but think it might work.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 mins (2011-06-03 15:29:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry, I ate "...or was she advised...".
Peer comment(s):
neutral neilmac : "of her own will" no me acaba...
2 mins
Sorry, neilmac, it's not "of the own will", but "on her own will". I think there's a difference.
neutral Carol Gullidge : I guess you meant OF her own free will, but in any case, she could still come of her own free will after having been advised to do so - i.e, she was advised but not coerced//that's beside the point!
20 mins
Well, I don't know what she went to hospital for, but I don't think anyone can actually "coerce" you to do it. After all, "motivación de terceros" means others have told her it's better for her, thus she was advised. // Sorry, I misunderstood you.
Something went wrong...
38 mins

Did the patient come voluntarily, or did someone talk her into it?

:)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2011-06-03 21:40:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I might be even tempted to turn it into two questions for a PPT slide:

"Did the patient come voluntarily?" "Or was she talked into it?"
(I have reservations about "come"; it seems lacking somehow)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2011-06-03 22:00:26 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"Make the decision" would work better than "come" maybe?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2011-06-03 22:02:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Yes, I think I prefer this option:

"Did the patient make the decision voluntarily? "Or did someone talk her into it?"
Peer comment(s):
neutral Carol Gullidge : again, you can still do something voluntarily after being talked into it! Indeed you can, but that's beside the point! Your "OR" implies that the two are mutually exclusive
12 mins
You can indeed Carol, but you can also do something voluntarily without being talked into it./My 'OR' is there because 'O' is in the ST. I fail to see how this implies that the two are mutually exclusive. Seems you're overcomplicating a simple expression.
agree philgoddard
14 mins
Thanks Phil.
disagree liz askew : I don't think there is any negative meaning in the Spanish phrase.
3 hrs
I don't think there is any negative meaning in the Spanish phrase either; if you're reading 'talk her into it' negatively, that's your personal reading - not mine!
Something went wrong...
8 hrs

Did the patient come on her own initiative, or at the instigation of others?

Considering all the "subtleties" that have been discussed, I'm inclined to think that this solution covers the situation nicely.
Something went wrong...
-1
4 hrs

Did the patient come of her own volition/accord or through a third party?

Did the patient come of her own volition/account or through a third party


Explanation:
I don't see why everybody is translating this as "upon the insistence of" or otherwise


Patients can refer themselves (i.e. turn up at a clinic without referrral from a GP) or be referred by a third party, now a third party could be anybody in either the medical profession or any other, or just a colleague/friend of the patient.

I don't think there are any negative overtones in this phrase, which others seem to think is the case.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2011-06-03 19:47:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Look here

de terceros, just means "third parties", i.e. professionals, non-professionals, family or friends.

This how I understand this.

Redalyc- Artículo: La decisión de entrar a un tratamiento de ... - [ Translate this page ]
La decisión de entrar a un tratamiento de adicciones: motivación propia e influencia de terceros. Terapia Psicológica, Julio-Sin mes, 119-127. ...
redalyc.uaemex.mx/src/inicio/ArtPdfRed.jsp?iCve=78511885012 - Cached
El futuro de los negocios - Google Books Result
Lawrence J. Gitman - 2007 - Business & Economics - 814 pages
La tercera función básica de los administradores es liderar, es decir, el proceso de guiar y motivar a terceros para que logren las metas de la organización ...
books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=9706864784...
Terapia psicológica - La decisión de entrar a un tratamiento de ... - [ Translate this page ]
by CL Acosta - 2009 - Cited by 1 - Related articles
La decisión de entrar a un tratamiento de adicciones: motivación propia e influencia de terceros. The decision to enter an addiction treatment: self ...
www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0718... - Cache

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 days23 hrs (2011-06-07 15:10:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

por actuación de terceros > by third parties
18 Aug 2009 ... (KudoZ) Spanish to English translation of por actuación de terceros: by third parties [Law (general) (Law/Patents)].
www.proz.com › KudoZ home › Spanish to English › Law (general) - Cached
Third party bank > Banco de terceros
16 Oct 2002 ... (KudoZ) English to Spanish translation of Third party bank ...
www.proz.com › ... › English to Spanish › Finance (general) - Cached
Show more results from proz.com
third-party Sitemap generators - Google Code
15 Mar 2011 ... Please Note: Google has not tested or verified the features or security of the third party software listed on this site. ...
code.google.com/p/sitemap-generators/wiki/SitemapGenerators - Similar
Third-Party Apps | Tumblr
Post text and photos to Tumblr and other web services at the same time using email, SMS, MMS, instant messaging, or third-party applications. ...
www.tumblr.com/docs/apps - Cached - Similar
Translation of Terceros in Spanish
búsqueda a terceros = third party searching. * servicio a través de terceros = third-party service. Dictionary source: Spanish English Dictionary (Granada ...
translation.babylon.com › Spanish Translation - Cached
sptranslators : Message: Accounting: Servicios de Terceros
3 posts - 2 authors - Last post: 22 Apr 2006
"Servicios de Terceros" I don't know how that is usually expressed in English in a financial or accounting statement: "Third-Party Services" ...
tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/sptranslators/message/36849 - Cached
derechos de terceros -- inmueble - WordReference Forums
7 posts - 3 authors - Last post: 4 Oct 2005
derechos de terceros -- inmueble Legal Terminology. ... I agree that it could be translated as "Third-party rights on the premises" but I ...
forum.wordreference.com › ... › Legal Terminology - Cached

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2011-06-07 15:45:46 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Another example of "terceros" and even "cuartos"


http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rN7GRyP...


También es harto complicado integrar personalidades distintas que se han seducido mutuamente en base a la complementareidad y el encanto de la diferencia, ello exige una capacidad de ponerse en el lugar del otro a la que nuestro egoismo nos tiene poco acostumbrados, negociar y hacer transaciones a los que nuestra sociedad más basada en el poder y la fuerza que otra cosa nos tiene muy poco habituados, la influencia de terceros y cuartos en discordia puede interferir más de la cuenta en la vida de la pareja -incapaces de adoptar un papel secundario para permitir el adecuado crecimiento de una nueva familia.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2011-06-07 16:05:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Dual-process theories in social psychology - Google Books Result
Shelly Chaiken, Yaacov Trope - 1999 - Medical - 657 pages
As just noted, Fiske and Neuberg (1990) described motivations as stemming from a motivating agent — self, target, or a third party — who controls outcomes ...
books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=1572304219..
Peer comment(s):
disagree James A. Walsh : As the asker just confirmed, this is about patients’ personalities, so is personal to the patient. Grouping "professionals, non-professionals, family or friends" all together as "third parties" is quite regrettable, IMO.
1 hr
nonsense. This is about third parties.
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